Hopefully it was a great success. Let’s hope the discussion this time is not sidetracked by Gerry the Joiner and that Jezabel.
Could I suggest that the debate about CJE is not just about what they teach as part of the Jewish curriculum but is probably more concerned with what has not been taught about other religions.
Now that comparative religions are going to be taught, according to Dr Duffy, it is important that this is given support by the parents.
I would like to know, given that there is a forthcoming AGM of CJE, if they will ask for nominations to their committee prior to this AGM. It is widely known that Michael Clerk is chucking it - so why have the parents not been notified that they are looking for a replacement?
Would Karen Levy would call me a “peurile idiot” for suggesting that CJE should consult with their constituency - the parents.?
That committee think that holding an AGM once a year is sufficient accountability. It isn’t. Quite simply they are taking the piss!
I don’t think Karen was referring to you specifically, rather the tone that the blog had taken. Also whilst you may not have agreed with Gerry and Jezabel nor liked their comments, their opinion should be no less valued. Let’s not reduce this once again to petty squables.
Calderwood parent how about applying for thejob? Do you actually know who is on the CJE? If I am right there is 6 Calderwood parents on the committee.
Fantastic! Only 1 post before someone gets personal. Calderwood Parent is clearly someone who thinks that by slagging people they are going to be “engaged in debate”. If you are so concerned about not getting sidetracked then perhaps you should not try picking on people who’s opinions are worth twice yours.
The reason why this blog cannot be taken seriously as a place for discussion is because of stupid comments like yours. There are 120 kids at Calderwood and therefore at least 80 sets of Parents but only about 5 posting on this blog. Discussion? don’t make me laugh. Calderwood Parent is part of the problem, hiding behind anonymity. If you want to be taken seriously then reveal yourself.
I’m not sure that Calderwood Parent is the kind of person I’d want on CJE.
Working on the principle that even a blind dog can dig up a bone every so often, it seems that Calderwood Parent may have a point (albeit one I made on the original blog page). The structure and accountability of CJE has not been made clear and knowing that the AGMs of the last few years have not included discussion on the future of CJE I think it is time for CJE to write a “CJE for Dummies” and send it to all the parents in time for the AGM.
I may be interested in joining, who do I ask for information? How do I seek nomination? When is the AGM?
I think some people take the blog postings a bit seriously. It’s a blog. That means it’s a forum for all opinions and will inevitably have people who post content or in a manner with which you disagree. However I think with the various blogs on here whilst, of course, there are some postings which are a bit off the exercise is useful. I suspect many of us wouldn’t even agree as which ones are off. So far I’ve noted a general feeling on the education blog that people would like more info from CJE. On the Jim Murphy blog there has been general disappointment that his views were good deal less radical than a number of bloggers. Other matters are coming bup and the blogs are being read by substantially more than are posting.
Don’t criticise the blog merely because you don’t like what is posted there. We are getting discussion which is open to all who can use a computer and have internet access and there hasn’t been a huge amount of that in this community before.
You comment much better early in the morning Mr Beitz. At night time you lose it a little.
You’ve got it right this time - and I have decided to forget about your views on IJV and applaud your previous comment.
Mr Beitz, you are right as far as you go, however my criticism of this format is that it positively encourages people to be rude unnecessarily which actively discourages those allegedly watching from getting involved. GJEF is fooling itself if it actually thinks that the blog is working. Just because it gets lots of hits means nothing - I have several websites, on of which gets 10,000 hits per month which sound great until you realise that it is the same 200 or 300 looking several times a day.
I feel entitled to criticise the blog because I and very few others are continually singled out for ‘off colour’ comments. Perhaps the posters think I can take it, which I can, but again and again I have said that each time this happens more people are turned off discussing anything on this blog. If I didn’t care I would keep the hell away. It is very clear that GJEF has a hidden agenda and I believe that they wish to control what gets discussed in this Community and how. It is curious that people who should not have access to private information from this blog know who is who despite so called anonymity.
These discussions ARE serious. I am very concerned about my children’s education and their future here in Glasgow but CJE and others will not come on here because they know they will get hammered by a few morons and why should they? That is why I have asked for information to given to ALL parents through the normal route rather than here.
This blog has become a club for precious few to have a go at each other and, as usual, nothing comes of it. Debate on subjects like this are worse than useless unless concrete action results.
Gerry what is the CJE’s hidden agenda - to indoctrinate our children into Judaism? Apart from Michael Clark the CJE is made up of parents as far as I am aware so what do you possibly think they are trying to hide?
Today is thinking day at Calderwood and the parents would do well to do a bit more thinking before they make rude comments! I don’t know if the open day was a success i heard only a few prospective parents came.
Gerry what is GJEF’s hidden agenda? I’d like to know. You say they want to control what is discussed and how. In fact is that they allow almost anything on the blog and you then complain about that Oh and generally anonymity is lost either because people either give clues or admit quite openly to others off blog who they are. Enjoy the blog and stop being paranoid.
I should explain myself a bit for the alleged watching thousands.
When I speak to most of my friends, the vast majority of whom are parents of primary age kids (most at CL), they either do not look at the blog or did for a while but are now fed up with it exactly because they do not trust GJEF’s motives, are confused by the discrepancy in the headlines and are sickened at the way that “anything goes”.
I have made my views known about what I regard as counter-productive policies on this blog both here in public and directly to the blog owners. I KNOW that something like this is what we need but I believe the lack of decorum has discouraged debate. I feel that whilst the blog format suits GJEF’s style it is not a sufficiently wide and inclusive one to produce concrete results.
Not one for sitting on my hands and in the spirit of the blog’s stated objective of “the Community’s future”, I have created a Bulletin Board Forum as a place for each organisation to have their own wee bit to use as they please but all in one place. Whilst there are places for general discussion (as well as jokes etc) it is a Bulletin Board and not meant to replace this blog nor act as a competitor in any way. I have a specific plan in mind which, I hope, addresses all the disadvantages of the blog and may suit the likes of the Shuls, CJE Charities Youth Groups etc better. It is an experiment to see if the Community is ready for a general web based contact point.
Admin. Remove that previous post. After all it’s not consistent with GJEF’s ” wish to control what gets discussed in this Community and how” if they allow links to sites over which they have no control to be promulgated.
Gerry whilst I appreciatte the motive I don’t believe this is helpful.
I am disturbed that you feel the need to speak on others behalf and again whist I understand your motives I think you would do better to encourage them to voice their own opinions and concerns regarding any of the issues raised here. One might say that the opinion you are expressing is not to be trusted as I don’t know who you are speaking for.
I think it is time for us all to take responsibility, express our own ideas, thoughts and opinions and not rely on others to interpret for us.
Gerry-you are pathetic.You complain about others when you are doing exactly the same . You treat this blog as some sort of ego trip/joke and you want the punters to believe that your bulletins are in good faith.Also it is not lost on me that you are the only blogger to have been officially warned about the offensive nature of your comments.
Some of us set this up to promote educated debate-no real boundaries-no particular bias ;you don’t have the emotional or itellectual maturity to deal with that but you do have sufficient conceit to think that your drivel is interesting to the readers ; let me tell you it may be funny for you and no doubt a little band of similar under-achievers but for the rest of us I suspect we’d be happy enough to see the back of you ;
reasonable criticism/constructive exchanges are fine ,but your offerings are of little real consequence ,so why don’t you stop ridiculing yourself/boring the pants off the rest of us and just get on your bike ?
I think NPN didn’t mean to post that, it’s a wee bit over the top and was possibly done on the spur of the moment without careful thought like an e mail I once got.
It’s true! I have moaned and complained (and made my mistakes and apologised TAKE NOTE NPN) and got upset but instead of simply walking away and never darkening your doorstep again I have put my money where my mouth is.
I am not speaking for anyone else.
I have offered a place on the Bulletin Board to GJEF which was politely refused and I fully appreciate why.
I have stated many times the I applaud GJEF’s attempt to get things moving in the Community with the meetings although I disagree with what the blog has become.
I am keen to offer something that this blog and GJEF does not want to and that is directed at EVERY organisation in the Community for them to have control of NOT ME.
NPN. You are an idiot. You are an arrogant bully who believes that you have a monopoly on free speech. You have not read my post properly and have not looked at the BB properly. It is a completely different format to this one and is designed to do a different job to a different audience but that is so far beyond your comprehension that you can only be rude. Just remember that despite the pseudonyms we know who each other is and at some point we will all have to face each other. You do not know me, you have not said more than 10 words to me ever so how the hell do you know what motivates me and what I’m trying to do. Would you say that nonsense to my face? Would you stand up at a meeting and accuse others in the same way for trying to something for the Community as you yourself are?
Some points for everyone to consider (in simple English for NPN to understand)
The Bulletin Board is for others to post messages on, I will be one of 3 administrators
each organisation that wants a forum on the Board will have editorial control over their part
Users will have to register to post to the forums (an automatic email verification process) and can be anonymous
It is to be as inclusive as possible with as many groups as want to having their section
The board will only work if enough organisations join in and encourage their members to look in and register. If it works then I’ll be chuffed and be even more pleased to hand it on. If it fails then at least I had a go, it’s cost nothing but some time.
Debbie
My point about CJE (# was not that they have a hidden agenda but they are clearly reluctant to reply to comments on the blog because of concerns about being pilloried unreasonably. I think they are right to keep their counsel until their AGM when they can answer their critics in public.
As for speaking for others, my point is that they won’t post here for fear of being attacked by people that they share a small community with. I am not speaking for them I am simply repeating anecdotal evidence. Take that as you want.
I hope it will be soon and I will make every attempt to be there. I hope there is a huge turnout of parents with a good number prepared to get involved.
A Beitz
As ever I wilt in the face of your logic. This is their game and, therefore, their rules I must remember that in future. What are the rules, I seem to be unable to find any guidance on what is acceptable except from the example set by GJEF organisers themselves.
#8 10,000 hits per month is approx 330 per day. 200 or 300 bloggers, say 250 hitting, you say several times daily, which by definition is a minimum three times makes a daily total of at least 750. Are you quite sure you have the necessary qualifications to be an administrator?
NPN is quite correct to comment as he did about Gerry.
We have had to read countless times his ridiculous allegations that GJEF have “hidden agendas”. As far as I have read he does not have a shred of evidence for this rubbish.
You would have thought that he might lie a little low given that he has been the ONLY person to have been officially warned for posting offensive and inflamatory comments, but not Gerry. Although he accuses the owners of this blog
Instead he tries to tellus that he knows what people out there think about this blog. As if they would put their trust in a wally like Gerry.
He thinks this blog is useless but then uses it to advertise his own venture. Does he have no principles?
You obviously want people to take notice of you and no doubt you have some ideas about the community that you think you ought to share but you think it is sensible to attack the very forum that has given you a platform to spout your nonsense. Almost every one of your comments contains some sort of reference to your great past and present achievements. Well, I am not convinced.
Rather than thinking up ” conspiracy plots” about the people who have organised these lectures and this blog why don’t you just come to their meetings and listen and learn something. Because Gerry you are not half as smart as you think you are.
Einstein? Your username is as ironic as A Beitz’s!
Websites do not get hits on a consistent basis. It varies by the day of the week and time of day. Some people will hit refresh like a lab rat looking for food whilst others will visit every so often each one is counted as a hit whilst the webcounter publishes unique hits. It is misleading to look at the stats that way, however as websites are rated by search engines on the hit rate and number of links, any hit is a good hit. BTW the people going to my sites are not bloggers they wear a different style of anorak!
As for qualifications I have exactly the same level as the Blog’s Admin: none! Such is the joy of the internet, any fool can start a blog, website or forum. I started doing websites about 4 years ago as a way of making sure I was not getting ripped off by web designers and has become an exercise in Life Long Learning. Building the forum is a new challenge as I now need to learn about RDBMS, ah well, another piton hammered into the learning cliff!
In the spirit of “Educational” in the blog’s title I looked up a dictionary meaning of the word ’several’
sev·er·al (sĕv’ər-əl, sĕv’rəl) pronunciation
adj.
1. Being of a number more than two or three but not many: several miles away.
2. Single; distinct: “Pshaw! said I, with an air of carelessness, three several times” (Laurence Sterne).
3. Respectively different; various: They parted and went their several ways. See synonyms at distinct.
4. Law. Relating separately to each party of a bond or note.
pron. (used with a pl. verb)
An indefinite but small number; some or a few: Several of the workers went home sick.
As you can all imagine I am very tempted to weigh in at this juncture. However, I have promised Mrs Avraham that in future I will only say nice things on the blog. NPN, Beitzie and Ollie Onlooker you are doing a great job and have my full support.
I’ve just had very long and constructive conversation with Admin and he has explained a few things about the blog and we’ve discussed how I managed to get the wrong impression about the agenda which I am now assured is not hidden at all however let me say this for the last time and make it 100% clear for anyone who may think it is open season on anyone who raises their head above the parapet. I am disgusted at the attitudes displayed by individuals on this blog. A stated objective of the blog is to engage more people in debate and this will not happen whilst the bullies hold sway. I’ve never been one to back down from bullies and I’m not starting now so fire away and further ruin the good work GJEF has done, have a go at my efforts if you will, however AT LEAST I AM DOING SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE.
At no point have I rubbished the blog as an concept and I’m delighted that the meetings have been organised and have been vocal in my support but, and it is a big but, I have been extremely disappointed in the manner in which many users have been treated by others posting here. There has been a singular lack of constructive debate and the only controversy has been how insulting and abusive can individuals be and get away with it.
Is it mature to call anyone “under-achiever” or accuses them of “emotional or itellectual maturity” [sic] or “pathetic” and then expect a mature and considered response. What we have now is bullying plain and simple. A group of buddies ganging up to hammer the ugly kid. Am I not allowed to repeat my friends’ concerns about this blog? Apparently not according to Ollie & Co’s rules. Ollie calls me a “wally”, and thinks that my views should be ignored because I made a mistake. Where is his condemnation for Npn who chooses not to apologise for insulting his guest? Yes, I got it wrong but I am mature enough to admit it, apologise and move on. Only the nasty, small minded bullies take endless pleasure out of casting up. What is the matter boys, am I to be your punch bag because there is no one else for you to pick on? Perhaps YOUR behaviour is the reason the playground is so empty.
Now, perhaps we can get back to the subject in hand, the future of our Community
Keeping to the subject
I was told a couple of weeks ago that the CJE AGM is not too far away and that we should be speaking to our fellow Calderwood parents to encourage as many as possible to come along. The normal method of announcing the meeting is through letters home with the kids and I hope to hear something soon.
I will be going in the hope that I get some questions answered despite the risk that I get voted on to the Committee by default.
Re #1 I would also like to hear a fresh perspective on CL from a new parent after the open day
Don’t be ridiculous Gerry. Your behaviour was shameful when you posted that comment. No one else stooped to that level. Also - it was you that attacked the organisers of these lectures and made up nonsense about hidden agendas. Ollie is right - and so was NPN. You ask for constructive debate whilst attacking the people who set this whole thing up. I think you should now be ignored.
Chalk up another one for the bullying. Gerry’s right you are a bunch of schoolyard bullies. His commetn was wrong but you dont care about the clarification so I suppose you agree with that Curious eh?
I remember M green aka A machor who got banned. wonder what he’s calling himself today?
I am no relation of Gerry but liked the sound of the name.
Can we please get back to discussing Jewish Education. I am led to believe that the CJE AGM will be announced soon and letters will arrive either in schoolbags or by snail mail. I hope all those interested enough in your children’s Jewish (and secular) education will come along and take a constructive part in the meeting.
Richard, I am intrigued by your comments and would love to know what questions you would like answered by CJE. Myself I am looking to hear how other world religions will be taught at the school and the new reading scheme that was mentioned in the previous blog on the subject.
Personally, I am very happy at the way the Kodesh and Ivrit teachers go about educating my children and the good things my children say about all their teachers so i am looking forward to hearing more of the role of CJE as the school looks forward to another new Head Teacher.
The issue is not the quality of the teaching or the resources itself but rather where the curriculum comes from and how it has been developed over the years (or not, I don’t know). My problem is the lack of information from CJE about what it does and why. For example is there a centrally formulated curriculum for Kodesh followed by all Jewish schools or is it left to the teachers to develop their own. I know the school is or will be covering comparative religion (a very good thing) and how is that mirrored by the Jewish education part of the school.
As regards the CJE Committee, I would like to know what they do, who they are accountable to and when and how they operate.
Really I do not know enough about CJE and its operations (except the direct debits!) to know what questions to ask. If you dig through the rest of the Blog (especially the ‘welcome’ page) you’ll see lots of questions all of which I hope will be answered at the AGM. It is unfair to criticise until that information is available to be digested.
I think Gerry should have thought a bit more before posting but equally some of the responses are over the top. Let’s now discuss Jewsh education rather than hidden agendas and alleged personality defects.
Any views on the assemblies at Hutchie, Mearns Castle, Craigholme, etc which are for the Jewish kids since these also are part of the Jewsih education (or possible lack of it) in Glasgow?
The problem with assemblies at the various schools is getting quality - as I have said at many a UJIA meeting in my opinion it is better not to provide rubbish which turns kids off in a big way, we need to provide quality not quantity and look to getting them along to youth groups, community events, etc.
could we get some of the ‘youth’ to some of these meetings or set up some parallel meetings - via the youth forum or as part of this - maybe even a ‘youth’ blog?
NLL
One of the points of the creation of the Bulletin Board was to provide a safe and controlled environment on the web where the youth groups (and anyone else for that matter) could have a place for discussion without parents worrying about inappropriate behaviour. Each part of the BB can have access controlled according to each groups desires without the hassle of having to set up and manage their own blog.
It is also important for all the various organisations to have 1 central point of access so that once you’ve got into it you can see all the organisations’ forums laid out in front of you. I imagine if you will 1 forum for each JSoc under a Northern Region Section where announcements of meetings and discussion of whatever they fancy. A group of ’student’ users is created so only they can get access to post but anyone can read.
The GJEF blog is a great concept but the format has its limitations. Without verification of identities it is too easy for the ‘wrong’ sort of people to gain access. Despite the cat calls about the Board, please take a good look at it as it is a format that is very familiar to younger web users and is used by many schools for their own use.
The best way to engage the yoof si through a medium they are intimate with and is available very conveniently. If it also puts access to other groups’ forums (shuls, students, etc etc) then is good for the future as well.
Can you stop rambling on about your boring bulletin board? Every comment you submit is to advertise this thing - and I don’t think it’s the answer at all. The owners of this blog should start charging you for advertising or stop you doing this.
By the way Mr Beitz the replies to Gerry were not in my opinion over the top. This was not the first time that Gerry should have thought before posting nonsense and I for one have had enough of it.
Debby, you are right. It should be quality not quantity. What criteria are used before deciding who should be taking these assemblies and is the focus solely religious or do you encourage activities about Jewish identity in all its forms as well?
So, Interested, what are you proposing? Anything at all? No, I thought not. NLL made a very good point about something similar to the blog but aim specifically at the youth, however I am concerned that if my children were to participate in a blog, which has very few controls, then I have little or no idea to who they are speaking. Blogs have their place but I believe that the BB format is better suited to less discussion orientated groups and those aimed at children and young adults where registration and validation of participants is required.
If you find it the subject so boring why do you feel obliged to comment?
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Stop going on and on about your bulletin board. We are falling asleep
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Interseted #38 it is UJIA who organises the assemblies. I know that they do have packages that they can use which covers both religeous themes and also Jewish identity. However the difficulty is not with the content but rather getting people to provide the assemblies. There are not that many people who want to do them, it is not at convenient time etc so they tend to use who is available rather than who may deliver high quality!!
I think we should look at Jewish education in a broader sense - it is not just about text books and the teaching of ritual.
For instance has anyone read on page 12 of this week’s Jewish Chronicle about an excellent initiative by J Core - the Jewish Council for Racial Equality. Volunteers from this group spent the night at Parliament Square, in protest at the plight of refugee asylum seekers. The “sleep out” was part of a campaign by this group to raise awareness of destitution and to highlight that destitute asylum seekers have no home. Among the members who participated was Rabbi Jeremy Gordon of St Albans Masorti Synagogue. He commented…” Destitute asylum seekers are easy to ignore, but we do so at our peril. From our history and from our scripture we should recognise that this is a very Jewish issue.”
In my opinion this is also Jewish education. We are too concerned with the ritual and not concerned enough about values in Jewish education. What kind of values do we want our children to grow up with?
We need to redress the balance and in Glasgow we should devote time and energy to this.
How would you see this being done #42. “We need to redress the balance” “we should devote time and energy to this”. So what time and energy are you going to devote and how do “we” go about it?
I am asking because I have no idea who you are and am interested to know if you put or will put your time and energy where your mouth is!!
Also I do believe that Calderwood already encourages Jewish Values for example, giving to charity, visiting Jewish care, tackling environmental issues, as do many of the youth groups, UJIA etc.
Debby, you seem to always give the impression that you want to question everyone’s commitment before they have a right to observe and to comment.
Well, I have a long record of communal involvement, and I am still involved comunally today - and no I am not prepared to tell you who I am because I think that the anonymity of this blog will help us get to the core issues more quickly.
I am not specifically referring to any organisation and I accept that some of the things you say about Calderwood - charity etc are being done. We also have in Glasgow an excellent record of looking after our old and needy and this is the one area in our community with Jewish Care, Cosgrove and Newark that is a shining example.
But there is a large gap in terms of what kind of values we teach our children as a community.
It seems to me that the religious leadership is ONLY concerned with ritual and is not overly concerned about other matters. As a community when is the last time we had a major event or initiative to draw attention to some worthwhile cause that didn’t involve Jews or Israel?
Do we as a community teach our children to care about minorities or asylum seekers like that Rabbi in St Albans?
What are the values that Jewish people should have in today’s world?
I will ask one more question - are we sufficiently concerned about general humanity or are we only focussed on our own lives as Jews, or Israel? Surely Jewish values should be to care about others as well.
In my opinion, we as a community are not too bothered about others’ problems. We are too parochial in our concerns, efforts and attitudes.
#44 I am not questioning anyones commitment but if we all want to comment from our cosy armchairs who is going to do the work?
Secondly as anonymity seems to be preferred I have no way of knowing who you are or what you do or what you contribute to this or any other community.
Thirdly I can only comment for me and my family and I can certainly say that we are involved in supporting many organisations financially and with time both within and outwith the Jewish community. I think part of the problem is also that we are a shrinking community and therefore we need those who are involved in the community to stay involved. Simply there isn’t enough to go around.
I am not talking about individual families, but I am talking about the community education programmmes.
The Jewish ethos of our community would be richer and more positive if we were more interested in the world around us.
Do we as a community care about the hardships of others? I would suggest that we don’t because we the attitude is that these problems do not concern us?
When was the last time we saw an initiative from our own community similar to the one by the Rabbi in St Albans? I cannot remember either.
The fact that we are a reducing community is not an excuse for us retreating into our own little world.
If we were able to put forward community education or youth education that connected with some of the isues that young people feel strongly about - then maybe, just maybe, not so many would be disaffected. And by doing it from a Jewish perspective our youth might actually want to be more involved.
I am talking about educational programmes that should happen, but unfortunately do not.
There has been a real void in teaching values to our children. What I believe, is that there is more to Jewish education than formal teaching about ritual and for too long there has been a lack of emphasis about Jewish ethics and morality etc.
Too many of our community think that Jewish education is the remit of others and leave it all to religious leaders. And unfortunately that narrow definition is not nearly enough.
We need to think about what values Judaism should have. And we need to think how we want to educate our children and youth and who we want to do that teaching.
We also need to evaluate what diaspora communities’ relationships will be to Israel in the future. Will it be the same as now or will it change.?
I think this is an interesting path that Community Member is leading us down ; of course many would argue that if we embrace our ritual and stick broadly to Torah sourced values (I don’t mean being frum -I mean in the wider sense ) , then the ethos that Communitry Member seeks will follow ; some would suggest that we as a group/religion/race have a first class record when it comes to philanthropy or simply looking out for those less fortunate-although it would be fair to say that whilst Jewish Communities “give” financially and in more concrete forms ,they do tend to be selective.I have no statistics to support my proposition but if someone told me that 80 per cent of Jewish help went to only 5 per cent of potential recipients I would find that a believable statistic.
As a community how important is it to teach our children well , and to have them look beyond the boundaries of their immediate jewish environment ? It might be a nice enough thought , but would it not be equally fair to suggest that we are busy enough dealing with our own needs ,particularly given that we cannot rely on others to help us ? Or maybe that Mazorti Rabbi is right and we need to strive to reach beyond our comfort zone ,which effectively means teaching our kids to be far more “global” in there outlook , or to put it another way less parochial.
I’m not sure I have a definitive view .
Shavuah Tov to all.
#48 and #49 are extremely thought provoking. One of the most significant advantages of Calderwood is that the whole atmosphere of the school is imbued with Jewish ethics and morals. Teaching Kodesh, whilst good, does not give the children as good an emotional understanding as the wonderful community spirit that the school engenders. Is Community Member proposing something for those primary school age children not at Calderwood as well as a scheme for older kids? Surely it is a parental responsibility to teach ethics and morals as much by example as any other way but it can only be positive for there be some support and guidance that is not religiously motivated.
Npn, please take this in the positive way it is meant. Are you suggesting encouraging our kids to look more globally with a Jewish perspective or in a more general way? Can you expand your thoughts?
Community Member I have read everything you have had to say so far and found it very interesting. It would appear from reading extensively on this Blog site that GJEF have arranged a meeting on Thursday 26th April that should be right up your (communal) street.
Sometime towards the end of April Rabbi Professor Naftali Rothenberg will visit Glasgow. His lecture will focus on how anyone involved in Jewish education - informal and formal - has a responsibility to promote good ethical and moral values towards minority groups, and how Judaism has a responsibility in the world today to promote this. Rabbi Rothenberg is the Orthodox Rabbi of Har Adar, a suburb of Jerusalem, and is senior research fellow at the Van Leer Jerusalem Institute. He is also chair of the Centre of Tolerance Education in Israel. He has specifically requested meetings with youth and students.
So this meeting should give you and others food for thought.
I would like to expand on what I wrote earlier. I am proposing something for all children and youth whether they attend Calderwood or do not. It also is very relevant for secondary education and certainly for youth groups.
The education programme that we need has to be wider than ritualistic values. To be honest our religious leadership in the past 25 years has failed. As individuals many of our Rabbis, both past and present are good people. But how often do you hear them preach general morality from their pulpits. Of course I am generalising - and I am sure there are exceptions - but in general our Rabbis are preoccupied with teaching ritual - because they believe that will be the answer to our problems. It is rare for them to touch on general morality without emphasising ritual.
They have a part to play in a wider educational programme and it would be highly desirable if they could play an important part.
But we need to think what kind of people we are and the values we have towards non- Jewish people. Far too many of our communiy are too insular in their outlook. Someone put forward the idea that we might be far too busy looking at our own needs to be interested in the plight of others. My answer to that is this. If we become overly concerned with ourselves we lose perspective and we need to let our children be confident about their own Jewish identity and then take the best of that to the wider world.
I was delighted to see that Calderwood Lodge will teach comparative religions. My surprise was that this seems to be a new initiative and I am truly astonished that some people do not want our children to have knowledge about other peoples’ culture.
Our youth groups also have a responsibility. It is a common complaint by many parents that their children are not interested in attending or mixing with other Jewish kids because they do not share that way of thinking. Maybe the youth groups need to have a wider educational programme. Maybe some of these children who do not want to identify at present would identify if there was a product or a way of thinking that they could relate to.
Let’s widen our way of thinking. We live in the wider world - let’s be positive about our Jewish culture and heritage but care about those who are not so fortunate who are not Jewish.
How we interact with the wider world is absolutely crucial.
Do you have any concrete ideas community member or is this just a theoretical position? My guess is that you have thought this out in a little more depth and would like to know what you are proposing.
This is not just theoretical. I have believed for a long time that anyone involved in education in this community - and I am talking about all kinds of education - including youth groups and students should be committed to a programme that makes it perfectly clear that they have an obligation to teach about the dangers of racism and an obligation to teach respect for all ethnic groups, nationalities, religions and minority groups.
Anyone working within education within our community will have to confirm that they agree to this principle. That will include Rabbis, youth workers, teachers, chaplains. It should be adopted and agreed by all organisations that their employees - paid and voluntary - will follow these guidelines - and this will obviously include UJIA, the Synagogues, CJE , Chaplaincy Board etc. This would be part of their contract of employment.
We should, as a community, introduce a programme en educational programme that covers all age groups that will teach about this subject.
I will expand on this in due course.
The principles you would have our educators teach are self evident but how would you go about ensuring that this is done when there are so many diverse employers all with their own agendas? These employers may also need some education themselves not just to understand what the brief is but to be knowledgeable enough to monitor the progress of such initiatives. This sort of policy would need a community united in purpose and would demand radical changes. If I remember correctly, there was an earlier proposal to rationalize the community buildings, organizations and underlying structure to take account of the community we are at present and will be in 10 years time rather than what we once were. I forget who actually put forward the suggestion but it seemed worthy of further consideration and some such rearrangement may be necessary to create the conditions for your proposals to be more than just a theoretical position.
Let’s think about this. Why could there not be a not ” communal charter” set up soon that is a basic guide to principles which all communal organisations are urged to adopt. You do not need to wait 10 years before their is a complete overhaul of communal structure. In the short term some organisations would sign up - and this could be publicised. Soon it would be obvious which organisations had not signed up. And then the community could ask why?
I think this would work. You do need a community united in purpose at the beginning. That is utopian. But you need to start somewhere. Maybe GJEF might undertake to start this initiative?
What do others think?
I am not in disagreement. I would point out that it was not suggested that we wait 10 years,rather we start now laying down the necessary conditions. It is important to look ahead to ensure that those conditions are appropriate.
GJEF have done well organising a few meetings, I think reorganising glasgow’s jews is beyond they’re remit.
All these groups already have such policies in place, is he (or she) suggesting that groups be foreced to sign up or face being ostracized or denied funding. Who sets this new policy and how are they chosen? How does affect groups that only teach jewish subjects like Luby?
Creating a plan to consolidate buildings and groups is one thing but dictating their activities is doomed to failure.
I think you lot need a reality check! Much of the type of education you are referring to is already being carried out at our youth groups and you are not going to dictate what our Rabbi’s teach.
There have already been cross communal meetings about consolidating educational and other activity in Glasgow - I attended one, and understand there had been previous meetings. There was a lot of good stuff discussed and many round the table were in general agreement about taking some first steps. Unfortunately before the ink was dry, one organisation scuppered all the plans by doing something that contradicted what had been agreed - so leaving others demoralised and frustrated.
So good as some of the previous suggestions might be I’m really not sure how you force people to sign up, and what sanctions you have if groups or individuals don’t play.
Debbie I agree much is already being done by existing youth groups - maybe we just need to support them better and not throw away what works well.
Reality is that many of the organisations are voluntary and therefore you cannot force them to sign up to anything.
I know that UJIA are trying really hard to support and work with existing groups and have already done training for youth leaders. I think this is a much more realistic way to move forward.
One of the problems Glasgow Jewry will have to face in the future is a lack of youth leaders and we need to find ways of working with our youth leaders and not alienating them.
I note some interesting responses to my idea about an educational programme or charter as MB calls it that has a basic code of conduct for communal organisations regarding racism, respect for minorities etc.
I am not surprised about some of the responses to this but I am disappointed.
Little John is quite wrong. Firstly there are no current policies in place by any communal organisation I know and I would dearly love to know who they are if they exist because they are setting a very good example.
It should not be such a controversial proposal that it causes such disquiet. Why on earth should there not be a code of principles for Jewish communal organisations when it exists in every other area of public life.
Those who signed up would be applauded and the community could decide for themselves what support to give to those who refuse.
We are only talking here about a basic charter about racism and respect for other minorities. This is hardly revolutionary material.
Little John is obviously unsure about what this proposal actually is because the fact that one’s remit is to teach Judaism should not prevent that organisation having no tolerance for racism and prejudice. I would hope Lubavitch would have no problem with such a charter.
Debby, if it was only true that our youth groups taught this kind of material then there would be no problem. They do not. Also please tell me what decent human being could have a problem agreeing to these principles - and many Rabbis are decent people - and I would suggest should have no problem with adopting this. Please tell me why they would.
I would also suggest that there have been years of neglect in our community regarding youth groups. I would suggest that the current educational support system for these groups is poor. Part of this has arisen because there is only one organisation that is involved in this - UJIA - and this has actually resulted in a decrease in standards. I will expand on this at a later date.
COMMUNITY MEMBER
At least five but no more than ten skeleton bullet points please for the fledgling charter ; happy to help you put meat (glatt of course) on the bones !
Before I commented I spent 10 minutes looking at the youth groups websites and found that every one either had a policy or made clear references to tolerance of other minorities. All have links to fairtrade, protect Darfur and other non jewish campaigns. Every one says they express jewishness with global awareness - even those with a jewish religious centre. Why have you not checked?
All employers must, by UK law, have policies on racism and equal opportunities and this already form part of employees contracts. Therefore all th communal bodies (’employee’ covers paid and voluntary) must have these policies. It is correct it is not revolutionary, it has been explicit in law for many years.
Community member is right about 1 thing though, i do not understand why yet more policies are needed to cover the same issues. If a group does not have a policy then they should create one. Who are we to impose our views on them.
I have never been that bothered about getting people to sign up to things since it’s what they do and not what they say that matters. I see companies who tick the boxes to get Investors In People accreditation when they treat their staff appallingly. Indeed some of these certificates do remind me of the man who carries a document with him certifying he is sane.
However I do agree that too much of the religious teaching deals with ritual and not enough with ethics. Too often we forget the commandments between man and man are just as important, if not more, than those between man and God. Honours are given to monied people despite the fact their morality stinks. Shul boxes are occupied by struck off solicitors and their like. At the same time the man who marries out will not be called up in a number of orthodox shuls despite him having just been bereaved.
Hopefully Rabbi Rothenberg will tip the balance a little when he speaks. We actually have a pretty strong set of ethical values in Judaism to live your daily life by. Unfortunately we lose sight of these when looking at the ritual minutiae.
How would you get everyone to sign up to the charter? You can’t just say here is a charter written by me and my mates from the blog. You would need to get the rep. council to approve it first.
Surely the first step is to encourage more of our youngsters to join the various youth groups and move on to do the (very good) leadership courses they all run. Then they are more likely to be interested in the issues facing our local and global communities and go on to become involved in ‘adult’ groups/services/committees, Jewish & Non-Jewish.
We should be supporting these groups both financially and with our time and doing everything to get more young people involved.
We have a very proud tradition in Glasgow of providing many of the best national (and international) leaders and activists.
The laws between man and man far outweigh those between man and God (IIRC) but nevertheless it is often the ritual that helps us concentrate on the ‘higher’ purpose like the footballist who crosses himself before entering the field of play or kisses the club’s emblem on his shirt. He is unlikely to be religious but still he performs that ritual.
Many of Glasgow’s organisations (especially youth) are renowned for producing leaders and there are still (just) sufficient numbers of kids available to attend to maintain the diversity of outlook of these groups. Any proposal that requires these organisations to conform to a single standard of expression is morally reprehensible. Given that every organisation in our Community publishes their guiding principles any ‘Charter’ created by a small, unrepresentative group would be divisive and counter productive.
I’m sure there is little argument that the Rep Council, in its current form at least, is not the ideal forum for such a discussion but it is the only one that is even remotely representative and no charter or policy could have any legitimacy without full involvement with, and agreement to, the discussion from EVERY group affiliated to the Jewish Community.
Some further interesting responses. Richard you do not understand the proposal. I am not forcing organisations to do anything and they do not have to conform to ” a single standard of expression”..I am proposing a minimum standard of acceptable behaviour and decency and I do not think this would be so difficult to achieve. If it is - it is a dreadful indictment on us. Jezabel - this has nothing to do with a Representative Council. You do not need everyone’s agreement to put forward something like this.
I believe that some would sign up and some will not. Those who do - then great. Those that don’t may be asked to explain to the community why they have not.
NLL - there is so much more to education in our youth groups than sending leaders on the kind of leadership courses that UJIA seem to be obsessed with. These courses in Glasgow have consistently dealt with marketing and presentation. But as far as I can ascertain not too much about the actual educational content the youth groups are delivering.. We have a paid youth leader in Glasgow. Who is his employer, what does he do and who checks that he does what he should be doing?
I have commented that there is a problem in our community regarding the lack of an educational programme dealing with the teaching of respect for minorities, prejudice and ignorance of other cultures. Some people seem to think that everything is fine whereas I think it has been sadly remiss for years. I believe respect for others is a Jewish issue and we should think about a proper programme of education in this area.
If we as a community do not understand these issues how will our children learn that racism is wrong and that we need to respect all human beings regardless of race, religion or nationality.
We should not just look inward. We should have the confidence to look outwards.
I will as NPN requested offer my views on what would be in any proposed charter.
Can you give examples of the unacceptable behaviour that needs addressing?
If a standard is created, it is pointless unless enforced. However as the definition of “decency” and “morality” differs wildly between secular and religious never mind between political left and right, the real debate is who has the Right to create and then attempt to impose such a “standard” without consensus.
Jezabel….wakey wakey.
What do you not understand?
No one from GJEF has indicated that this charter would be written by them.
Someone might have suggested that they could but that is not the same? Of course anyone can write something that they think would help the community. It is then up to the community to decide whether they agree with it.
The proposed charter is an excellent initiative not because it will have a direct effect on community attitudes but because it is a statement of intent of the type of community we aspire to be. In itself the charter will not deal with racism; that can only be tackled by education and example. There is already a plethora of anti racist legislation in place in this country, but still racism is ubiquitous and possibly on the increase. There has already been one statement on this blog which had racist undertones. I am quite sure that it was not intentionally racist but arose out of lack of understanding and proper education. It is these sorts of attitudes that could and should be corrected. A few months ago a community dinner was arranged at which the speaker was a person of known extreme if not racist views. The dinner was eventually cancelled not by the intervention of leadership from the top. There is little leadership at the top. There are some very genuine, hardworking volunteers who do their best within their limited capabilities but that must never be confused with leadership. The dinner was cancelled because one, possibly two people had the sense to realise that not only was this wrong but that it would in the long term cause damage to the community. The damage would be twofold: our relationships with the greater community would be undermined and there would be damage to our own moral fibre. This was the case of one person having the vision and the will and the confidence to know right from wrong and being willing to lead a community from the bottom, from among the grass roots. There is talk of consulting with the Rep Council or other agencies within the community but that is consulting with anathema and failure.
Any of us (or all of us) not readily identified by name could be GJEF. This IS the issue - who is qualified to create such a charter, certainly not anyone I know, within this community or not. The fact that Ben Avraham considers it a fait a complis clearly demonstrates that now is the time for everyone to stand up and be counted. If one believes the ‘charter’ is truly a vehicle for global good then one must be seen to have the strength of one convictions and be publicly accountable in the same way many of us wish other groups would be.
If there is no consultation with the community at large (which this blog does not constitute) then there cannot be consensus and therefore any charter/policy will be doomed to exist on the fringes until it is forgotten. Any attempt to take the moral high ground unilaterally, however laudable, cannot be successful.
This would make a fantastic final meeting. It is both educational and directly affects the Community’s future.
Sorry but I’m still sceptical. It could be like the IJV statement where any right thinking person would agree with the sentiments but they are so wide that they are meaningless. It’s what we do that matters. Do we visit the sick and the bereaved or assist those in need practically and/or financially. Do we welcome strangers into our land whether economic immigrants or asylum seekers? Do we exhibit respect to people and try not to humiliate them? Do we behave ethically at work and at leisure? These are the sort of things that matter and people signing statements that they will be anti racist etc will probably achieve little.
You seem to be implying A Beitz that responsibilty lies with every individual. Of course it does. However there is also communal responsibility. And this necessitates standing up for what is right - and giving direction to what is right and what is wrong - and to what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. A statement or charter with defining principles is not an end in itself. It is the beginning.
Ben Avraham #76 made it clear that legislation doesn’t always solve the problem. In any case I’m inclined to agree with those questioning what goes into the charter. Either it’s the bleeding obvious eg tolerance, helping the less fortunate, etc or it gets into controversy depending upon individuals own values. If it’s agreed that no racist speakers will be permitted to speak by organisations then you have to define racist. Does it include Robert Kilroy-Silk or the whole Tory Party or the SNP or those who accept the Law of Return in Israel? Look at the amount of controversy the Human Rights Act engenders. The basic principles are non controversial but defining them certainly is.
Community member will no doubt tell us what he thinks should be in this charter but what’s your solution if you don’t agree with this attempt to state some clear guidelines. Let us look at one example for a start.
It was unfortunately all too obvious that many people involved in UJIA either did not care about the issues concerning Kilroy’s invitation or did not even understand what the issues were. So perhaps some guidelines would have been useful for that organisation for starters?
Community Member - I don’t know what your experience of the various youth leadership training courses is? I certainly haven’t detected a preoccupation with marketing and presentation. My sons have been involved with courses run by Macabbi, FZY, UJS and UJIA - they have learnt about child protection, educational content and methodology, bullying, team building, committee skills, interfaith dialogue, co-operation, responsibility on an individual and group level. They’ve developed a pride in their community and religion and so much much more + they’ve made, Jewish, friends the length and breadth of the country. The youth groups are running programmes of an impressively wide and varied nature - FZY are currently planning a session on sensory impairment.
Those who become involved are more than half-way there to staying involved, in some capacity, as adults. My real concern is that a large proportion of our young people do not attend any of these groups. Maybe more attention needs to be paid to the marketing and presentation you were so scathing about!!
Re the employment of a paid youth-worker. I believe the current encumbant is employed and line managed by UJIA. There are advantages with this arrangement as he can work across the various youth groups and is not tied to any one. Various youth groups have employed their own workers at various times - but funding is a big issue and most National organisations cannot support this given the small numbers involved here. I once dreamt of a team of youth workers, headed by a professionally qualified senior - I think that is no longer feasible?
What is it about people on this blog that have such a great desire to either praise their spouse for recent comments - or seem to think it is appropriate to tell us how wonderful their children are. Stop this nonsense.
I only asked Community Member to produce a draft to give us food for thought-then I and anyone else can revise away to our collectice heart’s content-the point being that once CM produces something we can then see how much of a pipe dream it is or if infact concensus is just round the corner.I’m not worried about who would sign up-but I am curious to see if our assembled wit , intellect ,beligerence, and apathy can come up with something worthy of rolling out to the community at large for discussion at a sunday night meeting…..
On youth groups ,my eldest has gone to Habonim a couple of times-she certainly enjoyed it but when I asked her about the Habonim stuff of my youth there wasn’t even a flicker of recognition i.e.Cupa (spelling?) ,zionism ,socialism ,judaism ! Iknow it is Dror/Habonim now but has it changed so much ?
Maybe Community Member and I are living in an idealistic past.
CommunityMember-if there was a fixed charter and for example the Rep. Council/BoD supported it ,what would happen if Israel did something which some supported and others saw as say discriminatory-the existence of your charter might by definition require the Rep.Council/BoD to criticise Israel for behaving contrary to the new code-the reality of course being that Israel must play by different rules and as such , value judgements that are quite legitimate in the uk cannot be applied in the same way when looking at Israel ; for that reason I seek clarity-are you intending this code/charter to govern only those who subscribe or all jews (and by definition Israel ) ,and if only those who subscribe does it mean we must condemn others who break your code ?I might support your code but be unwilling to take issue with those who choose not to.
Amazed - If you are speaking to me, I was not for one minute suggesting in this context that my children were wonderful - although of course they are. I merely mentioned they have participated in these groups and training courses to explain how I knew about what went on - otherwise you would rightly ask how I felt able to comment.
Ben Avraham - sensory impairment; collective term for loss of ones hearing and/or sight.
Can any one of these people committed to the new “peoples charter” please tell what you are on about. I have read this thread since community member started it and I haven’t got a clue what he/she is on about and what it has got to do with anything.
If I am right what is being talked about are people’s ethics, morals etc and if everybody signed up to this mythical charter - would we be a better community? And who would check. Sorry y’all I’m with Mr Beitz who’s name is actually contrary to this charter - it’s about what you DO rather than what you write about.
So come on CM put some meat on the bones and let us see what you are actually proposing because up till now all i am reading is waffle.
Why do people who cannot grasp the complexities of a subject on this blog not try and read and learn without trying to dismiss a subject as irrelevant or waffle.
If you had a little more insight “confused” you would be aware that this is a debate about moral values in this community. Why do you need everyone to sign up immediately? Can some not set an example?
Can I suggest that you re-read Ben Avraham’s summary of this issue - no 76 and then you might have a better understanding.
Also, NLL , I think it is time that you stopped blaming those who do not attend youth groups and start thinking about the reasons. Also read NLL’s comments about the education at one group and you will realise that the educational content at some of these groups is not what you think it is. You seem to know who employs the youth worker. Well could you tell us what he does and who checks that he does what he should be doing? Finally, why do so few of the youth attend communal meetings like the one that Jim Murphy spoke at. They used to. Is it not part of the youth worker’s remit to get the youth to meetings such as this?
1. Tell me a Jewish organisation or group in Glasgow that doesn’t already stand up to this “charter” (that nobody has actually defined yet).
2. The youth probably didn’t attend Jim Murphy’s meeting because it was during the time of their Intermediate/Standard Grade & Higher prelims.
Ben Avraham - ‘poor socialese!!’ If people think they are going to sign up to some sort of charter espousing anti-discriminatory practice etc, you’ll find that terms like sensory impairment are established and accepted language - so you better get used to them.
MB - I wasn’t blaming those who don’t attend the youth groups - the exact opposite. I was replying to the post from Community Member that said the leadership training seemed to focus on ‘marketing and presentation’ to the exclusion of the other issues that were being proposed by his charter. I suggested they already covered much of this, but maybe need to do more ‘marketing and presentation’ to attract those who are disaffected.
I am not involved in the employment of the youth worker, but I’m sure if you ask someone from UJIA Renewal they will enlighten you.
I totally agree about encouraging our youngsters to come to Community meetings and already suggested this in the blogg following the Jim Murphy meeting. 3 young people were present at that meeting - and they asked the most searching questions of the night with little support from the adults present.
Youth attendance has always been a problem and was discussed previously on the blog. A combination of parental disinterest in politics, lack of involvement (historically) in youth movements and subject matter that appeals to an older demographic is to blame.
It may be a mistake to try and lump everything together if we are to make inroads into the perceived apathy. The GJEF meetings have been a great focal point and the most interesting series of lectures for some time (albeit not yet directly relating to the Community’s future) and I’m looking forward to more, however 16-24 year olds in general are unlikely to be interested in moral/ethical debates.
As NL says, our Youth Movements need support from those with kids. The kids need to be encouraged to go, the leaders need strong Va’ad leman (Parent Committees) to guide and support/fundraise and despite the huge differences in political and religious outlook there is the possibility of joint/combined meetings to overcome the lack of numbers available. JLGB, whilst not peer led, shows that youth groups can still be immensely popular and there is no reason why, with support, FZY, RSY, Habo, BA etc cannot be equally successful. A suitable model for Glasgow’s peculiar needs should be developed. A blog is not the right forum, it must be done face to face by those currently involved and aware of the issues and, I suggest, be ready in time for next September for the next academic session?
Our 16-24 year olds must be the only group in existence that are not interested in moral/ ethical debates. Whatever you are on Richard, can I please have some?
I forgot to add that Incognito and NLL are kidding themselves.
The youth have not come to meetings in any numbers for years. And the students who are around in our community do not come either. It seems to me that there must be poor direction and leadership.
Maybe there hasn’t been anything of sufficient interest to attract the 16 -24 yr olds for a while - although Richard I actually think morals/ethics etc is an area that may well appeal. You are right however about the lack of encouragement - particularly from parents. As has been discussed elsewhere, they are not a group over conspicuous for their communal involvement either. Whilst public transport in this area is so poor, parents need to be physically involved in getting their off-spring to events - even if they can’t quite bring themselves to attend.
Also many meetings are on a Sunday night which clashes at least with FZY. I did suggest they arrange a couple of their meetings around the GJEF meetings, but whilst many of the 16/17/18 year old leaders were interested, they felt it wasn’t appropriate for the younger members.
Rabbi Rothenberg has specifically asked to meet youths/students and arrangements are being made for this.
Brilliant “amazed” you know your way round a keyboard. Congratulations.
Meanwhile I know of at least 16+ who would have gone to the Jim Murphy meeting except that they were studying for their Higher prelims so there!
Fair enough, I don’t know that many 16-24yr olds! This is why those involved with that age group have to do the helping, I’m more aware of 6-8yr old’s interests.
Incidentally, what are teh activity levels of the various groups, I know JLGB is strong and Habo is back on but what about the others? What can those of us with younger kids do to help?
Amazed
The fringe benefits of being a drugs dealer are many and varied but it does sound like you have a good supply already!!
The wording of a proposed community charter on the subject that has been discussed is posted below but I would like to comment first.
I welcome comment about the actual wording but please do not tell me that we do not have a problem in our community, because the evidence suggests otherwise. If you disagree with a charter please tell me how you would tackle the problem. To do nothing as we have been doing for years would be wrong.
If one of our foremost organisations - UJIA - who are certainly involved in activities and the funding of Jewish education - do not believe that it was totally unacceptable to invite Kilroy-Silk to speak at their annual dinner, and then tried to defend the indefensible - and when only one voice within this entire organisation would say openly that it was inappropriate and the invitation should be withdrawn - does that not imply that we as a community have a leadership problem.
If that is the example sent to the youth of this community and youth workers remain silent and when the voices of students also are not heard when you would expect students to be in the forefront of protests does that not make you think?
When the community remained silent for so long when one of its organisations was distributing material that could have been construed as racially inflamatory and when one of the founders of that organisation addressed a public meeting in Glasgow and made a speech that was certainly beyond reasonable expression - and that same individual remained on the executive of the Representative Council for months later, what does that tell you about prevailing values?
And unfortunately, I could continue with more examples of what has gone wrong. Now is the time to wake up and start to deal with this problem. Some may wish to bury their heads in the sand but I would prefer that we as a community embark upon a proper programme of education.
This proposed charter’s purpose is to establish a standard for public life in our community.
Community Charter.
1. From our history, and our culture and our religion we as a community should appreciate the dangers of racism and intolerance towards minority groups.
2. We have an obligation as individuals and as a community to teach respect for all ethnic groups, nationalities, religions and minorities and we have an obligation to teach about the dangers of racism.
3. We should have no tolerance for racism and prejudice and we have an obligation to raise awareness and concern for the plight of those suffering from this type of discrimination.
4. We should be positive about our Jewish identity and appreciate that it is part of our ethics and morality as a Jewish community to care about those who are not so fortunate.
5. We should encourage educational programmes in our community that will highlight these issues and we recognise that the ethos of our community will be richer and more positive if we care about the plight of others around us.
February 21, 2007 at 9:39 am
Glad to see this blog up and running again. Does anyone know how the Calderwood Open Day was received yesterday?
February 21, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Hopefully it was a great success. Let’s hope the discussion this time is not sidetracked by Gerry the Joiner and that Jezabel.
Could I suggest that the debate about CJE is not just about what they teach as part of the Jewish curriculum but is probably more concerned with what has not been taught about other religions.
Now that comparative religions are going to be taught, according to Dr Duffy, it is important that this is given support by the parents.
I would like to know, given that there is a forthcoming AGM of CJE, if they will ask for nominations to their committee prior to this AGM. It is widely known that Michael Clerk is chucking it - so why have the parents not been notified that they are looking for a replacement?
Would Karen Levy would call me a “peurile idiot” for suggesting that CJE should consult with their constituency - the parents.?
That committee think that holding an AGM once a year is sufficient accountability. It isn’t. Quite simply they are taking the piss!
February 21, 2007 at 6:51 pm
I don’t think Karen was referring to you specifically, rather the tone that the blog had taken. Also whilst you may not have agreed with Gerry and Jezabel nor liked their comments, their opinion should be no less valued. Let’s not reduce this once again to petty squables.
Calderwood parent how about applying for thejob? Do you actually know who is on the CJE? If I am right there is 6 Calderwood parents on the committee.
February 22, 2007 at 12:11 am
Fantastic! Only 1 post before someone gets personal. Calderwood Parent is clearly someone who thinks that by slagging people they are going to be “engaged in debate”. If you are so concerned about not getting sidetracked then perhaps you should not try picking on people who’s opinions are worth twice yours.
The reason why this blog cannot be taken seriously as a place for discussion is because of stupid comments like yours. There are 120 kids at Calderwood and therefore at least 80 sets of Parents but only about 5 posting on this blog. Discussion? don’t make me laugh. Calderwood Parent is part of the problem, hiding behind anonymity. If you want to be taken seriously then reveal yourself.
Git.
February 22, 2007 at 12:27 am
I’m not sure that Calderwood Parent is the kind of person I’d want on CJE.
Working on the principle that even a blind dog can dig up a bone every so often, it seems that Calderwood Parent may have a point (albeit one I made on the original blog page). The structure and accountability of CJE has not been made clear and knowing that the AGMs of the last few years have not included discussion on the future of CJE I think it is time for CJE to write a “CJE for Dummies” and send it to all the parents in time for the AGM.
I may be interested in joining, who do I ask for information? How do I seek nomination? When is the AGM?
February 22, 2007 at 7:16 am
I think some people take the blog postings a bit seriously. It’s a blog. That means it’s a forum for all opinions and will inevitably have people who post content or in a manner with which you disagree. However I think with the various blogs on here whilst, of course, there are some postings which are a bit off the exercise is useful. I suspect many of us wouldn’t even agree as which ones are off. So far I’ve noted a general feeling on the education blog that people would like more info from CJE. On the Jim Murphy blog there has been general disappointment that his views were good deal less radical than a number of bloggers. Other matters are coming bup and the blogs are being read by substantially more than are posting.
Don’t criticise the blog merely because you don’t like what is posted there. We are getting discussion which is open to all who can use a computer and have internet access and there hasn’t been a huge amount of that in this community before.
February 22, 2007 at 7:31 am
You comment much better early in the morning Mr Beitz. At night time you lose it a little.
You’ve got it right this time - and I have decided to forget about your views on IJV and applaud your previous comment.
February 22, 2007 at 8:56 am
Mr Beitz, you are right as far as you go, however my criticism of this format is that it positively encourages people to be rude unnecessarily which actively discourages those allegedly watching from getting involved. GJEF is fooling itself if it actually thinks that the blog is working. Just because it gets lots of hits means nothing - I have several websites, on of which gets 10,000 hits per month which sound great until you realise that it is the same 200 or 300 looking several times a day.
I feel entitled to criticise the blog because I and very few others are continually singled out for ‘off colour’ comments. Perhaps the posters think I can take it, which I can, but again and again I have said that each time this happens more people are turned off discussing anything on this blog. If I didn’t care I would keep the hell away. It is very clear that GJEF has a hidden agenda and I believe that they wish to control what gets discussed in this Community and how. It is curious that people who should not have access to private information from this blog know who is who despite so called anonymity.
These discussions ARE serious. I am very concerned about my children’s education and their future here in Glasgow but CJE and others will not come on here because they know they will get hammered by a few morons and why should they? That is why I have asked for information to given to ALL parents through the normal route rather than here.
This blog has become a club for precious few to have a go at each other and, as usual, nothing comes of it. Debate on subjects like this are worse than useless unless concrete action results.
February 22, 2007 at 9:21 am
Gerry what is the CJE’s hidden agenda - to indoctrinate our children into Judaism? Apart from Michael Clark the CJE is made up of parents as far as I am aware so what do you possibly think they are trying to hide?
February 22, 2007 at 10:31 am
Today is thinking day at Calderwood and the parents would do well to do a bit more thinking before they make rude comments! I don’t know if the open day was a success i heard only a few prospective parents came.
February 22, 2007 at 11:00 am
Gerry what is GJEF’s hidden agenda? I’d like to know. You say they want to control what is discussed and how. In fact is that they allow almost anything on the blog and you then complain about that Oh and generally anonymity is lost either because people either give clues or admit quite openly to others off blog who they are. Enjoy the blog and stop being paranoid.
February 22, 2007 at 11:03 am
Couple of typos above but you knw what I mean!
February 22, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Paranoid? Who said I was paranoid and why do they want to know!
I’m happy to discuss it guys, you know my phone number.
February 22, 2007 at 12:47 pm
I should explain myself a bit for the alleged watching thousands.
When I speak to most of my friends, the vast majority of whom are parents of primary age kids (most at CL), they either do not look at the blog or did for a while but are now fed up with it exactly because they do not trust GJEF’s motives, are confused by the discrepancy in the headlines and are sickened at the way that “anything goes”.
I have made my views known about what I regard as counter-productive policies on this blog both here in public and directly to the blog owners. I KNOW that something like this is what we need but I believe the lack of decorum has discouraged debate. I feel that whilst the blog format suits GJEF’s style it is not a sufficiently wide and inclusive one to produce concrete results.
Not one for sitting on my hands and in the spirit of the blog’s stated objective of “the Community’s future”, I have created a Bulletin Board Forum as a place for each organisation to have their own wee bit to use as they please but all in one place. Whilst there are places for general discussion (as well as jokes etc) it is a Bulletin Board and not meant to replace this blog nor act as a competitor in any way. I have a specific plan in mind which, I hope, addresses all the disadvantages of the blog and may suit the likes of the Shuls, CJE Charities Youth Groups etc better. It is an experiment to see if the Community is ready for a general web based contact point.
http://www.jewishinglasgow.net or http://www.jewishglasgow.net will get you there.
February 22, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Admin. Remove that previous post. After all it’s not consistent with GJEF’s ” wish to control what gets discussed in this Community and how” if they allow links to sites over which they have no control to be promulgated.
February 22, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Gerry whilst I appreciatte the motive I don’t believe this is helpful.
I am disturbed that you feel the need to speak on others behalf and again whist I understand your motives I think you would do better to encourage them to voice their own opinions and concerns regarding any of the issues raised here. One might say that the opinion you are expressing is not to be trusted as I don’t know who you are speaking for.
I think it is time for us all to take responsibility, express our own ideas, thoughts and opinions and not rely on others to interpret for us.
February 22, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Gerry-you are pathetic.You complain about others when you are doing exactly the same . You treat this blog as some sort of ego trip/joke and you want the punters to believe that your bulletins are in good faith.Also it is not lost on me that you are the only blogger to have been officially warned about the offensive nature of your comments.
Some of us set this up to promote educated debate-no real boundaries-no particular bias ;you don’t have the emotional or itellectual maturity to deal with that but you do have sufficient conceit to think that your drivel is interesting to the readers ; let me tell you it may be funny for you and no doubt a little band of similar under-achievers but for the rest of us I suspect we’d be happy enough to see the back of you ;
reasonable criticism/constructive exchanges are fine ,but your offerings are of little real consequence ,so why don’t you stop ridiculing yourself/boring the pants off the rest of us and just get on your bike ?
February 22, 2007 at 2:56 pm
I think NPN didn’t mean to post that, it’s a wee bit over the top and was possibly done on the spur of the moment without careful thought like an e mail I once got.
February 22, 2007 at 3:14 pm
SNP VOTER-very funny !
…..and no it certainly wasn’t knee-jerk.
February 22, 2007 at 3:29 pm
What the e mail you sent me wasn’t Knee jerk. You Boundah - Meet me at dawn pistols drawn!
February 22, 2007 at 4:02 pm
It’s true! I have moaned and complained (and made my mistakes and apologised TAKE NOTE NPN) and got upset but instead of simply walking away and never darkening your doorstep again I have put my money where my mouth is.
I am not speaking for anyone else.
I have offered a place on the Bulletin Board to GJEF which was politely refused and I fully appreciate why.
I have stated many times the I applaud GJEF’s attempt to get things moving in the Community with the meetings although I disagree with what the blog has become.
I am keen to offer something that this blog and GJEF does not want to and that is directed at EVERY organisation in the Community for them to have control of NOT ME.
NPN. You are an idiot. You are an arrogant bully who believes that you have a monopoly on free speech. You have not read my post properly and have not looked at the BB properly. It is a completely different format to this one and is designed to do a different job to a different audience but that is so far beyond your comprehension that you can only be rude. Just remember that despite the pseudonyms we know who each other is and at some point we will all have to face each other. You do not know me, you have not said more than 10 words to me ever so how the hell do you know what motivates me and what I’m trying to do. Would you say that nonsense to my face? Would you stand up at a meeting and accuse others in the same way for trying to something for the Community as you yourself are?
Some points for everyone to consider (in simple English for NPN to understand)
The Bulletin Board is for others to post messages on, I will be one of 3 administrators
each organisation that wants a forum on the Board will have editorial control over their part
Users will have to register to post to the forums (an automatic email verification process) and can be anonymous
It is to be as inclusive as possible with as many groups as want to having their section
The board will only work if enough organisations join in and encourage their members to look in and register. If it works then I’ll be chuffed and be even more pleased to hand it on. If it fails then at least I had a go, it’s cost nothing but some time.
As for getting on my bike, NPN, can I put you down for a substantial donation? http://www.roundthebend.org.uk
February 22, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Debbie
was not that they have a hidden agenda but they are clearly reluctant to reply to comments on the blog because of concerns about being pilloried unreasonably. I think they are right to keep their counsel until their AGM when they can answer their critics in public.
My point about CJE (#
As for speaking for others, my point is that they won’t post here for fear of being attacked by people that they share a small community with. I am not speaking for them I am simply repeating anecdotal evidence. Take that as you want.
I hope it will be soon and I will make every attempt to be there. I hope there is a huge turnout of parents with a good number prepared to get involved.
A Beitz
As ever I wilt in the face of your logic. This is their game and, therefore, their rules I must remember that in future. What are the rules, I seem to be unable to find any guidance on what is acceptable except from the example set by GJEF organisers themselves.
February 22, 2007 at 7:00 pm
#8 10,000 hits per month is approx 330 per day. 200 or 300 bloggers, say 250 hitting, you say several times daily, which by definition is a minimum three times makes a daily total of at least 750. Are you quite sure you have the necessary qualifications to be an administrator?
February 22, 2007 at 7:39 pm
NPN is quite correct to comment as he did about Gerry.
We have had to read countless times his ridiculous allegations that GJEF have “hidden agendas”. As far as I have read he does not have a shred of evidence for this rubbish.
You would have thought that he might lie a little low given that he has been the ONLY person to have been officially warned for posting offensive and inflamatory comments, but not Gerry. Although he accuses the owners of this blog
Instead he tries to tellus that he knows what people out there think about this blog. As if they would put their trust in a wally like Gerry.
He thinks this blog is useless but then uses it to advertise his own venture. Does he have no principles?
You obviously want people to take notice of you and no doubt you have some ideas about the community that you think you ought to share but you think it is sensible to attack the very forum that has given you a platform to spout your nonsense. Almost every one of your comments contains some sort of reference to your great past and present achievements. Well, I am not convinced.
Rather than thinking up ” conspiracy plots” about the people who have organised these lectures and this blog why don’t you just come to their meetings and listen and learn something. Because Gerry you are not half as smart as you think you are.
February 22, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Einstein? Your username is as ironic as A Beitz’s!
Websites do not get hits on a consistent basis. It varies by the day of the week and time of day. Some people will hit refresh like a lab rat looking for food whilst others will visit every so often each one is counted as a hit whilst the webcounter publishes unique hits. It is misleading to look at the stats that way, however as websites are rated by search engines on the hit rate and number of links, any hit is a good hit. BTW the people going to my sites are not bloggers they wear a different style of anorak!
As for qualifications I have exactly the same level as the Blog’s Admin: none! Such is the joy of the internet, any fool can start a blog, website or forum. I started doing websites about 4 years ago as a way of making sure I was not getting ripped off by web designers and has become an exercise in Life Long Learning. Building the forum is a new challenge as I now need to learn about RDBMS, ah well, another piton hammered into the learning cliff!
In the spirit of “Educational” in the blog’s title I looked up a dictionary meaning of the word ’several’
sev·er·al (sĕv’ər-əl, sĕv’rəl) pronunciation
adj.
1. Being of a number more than two or three but not many: several miles away.
2. Single; distinct: “Pshaw! said I, with an air of carelessness, three several times” (Laurence Sterne).
3. Respectively different; various: They parted and went their several ways. See synonyms at distinct.
4. Law. Relating separately to each party of a bond or note.
pron. (used with a pl. verb)
An indefinite but small number; some or a few: Several of the workers went home sick.
February 22, 2007 at 7:51 pm
As you can all imagine I am very tempted to weigh in at this juncture. However, I have promised Mrs Avraham that in future I will only say nice things on the blog. NPN, Beitzie and Ollie Onlooker you are doing a great job and have my full support.
February 22, 2007 at 9:43 pm
I’ve just had very long and constructive conversation with Admin and he has explained a few things about the blog and we’ve discussed how I managed to get the wrong impression about the agenda which I am now assured is not hidden at all however let me say this for the last time and make it 100% clear for anyone who may think it is open season on anyone who raises their head above the parapet. I am disgusted at the attitudes displayed by individuals on this blog. A stated objective of the blog is to engage more people in debate and this will not happen whilst the bullies hold sway. I’ve never been one to back down from bullies and I’m not starting now so fire away and further ruin the good work GJEF has done, have a go at my efforts if you will, however AT LEAST I AM DOING SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE.
At no point have I rubbished the blog as an concept and I’m delighted that the meetings have been organised and have been vocal in my support but, and it is a big but, I have been extremely disappointed in the manner in which many users have been treated by others posting here. There has been a singular lack of constructive debate and the only controversy has been how insulting and abusive can individuals be and get away with it.
Is it mature to call anyone “under-achiever” or accuses them of “emotional or itellectual maturity” [sic] or “pathetic” and then expect a mature and considered response. What we have now is bullying plain and simple. A group of buddies ganging up to hammer the ugly kid. Am I not allowed to repeat my friends’ concerns about this blog? Apparently not according to Ollie & Co’s rules. Ollie calls me a “wally”, and thinks that my views should be ignored because I made a mistake. Where is his condemnation for Npn who chooses not to apologise for insulting his guest? Yes, I got it wrong but I am mature enough to admit it, apologise and move on. Only the nasty, small minded bullies take endless pleasure out of casting up. What is the matter boys, am I to be your punch bag because there is no one else for you to pick on? Perhaps YOUR behaviour is the reason the playground is so empty.
Now, perhaps we can get back to the subject in hand, the future of our Community
February 22, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Keeping to the subject
I was told a couple of weeks ago that the CJE AGM is not too far away and that we should be speaking to our fellow Calderwood parents to encourage as many as possible to come along. The normal method of announcing the meeting is through letters home with the kids and I hope to hear something soon.
I will be going in the hope that I get some questions answered despite the risk that I get voted on to the Committee by default.
Re #1 I would also like to hear a fresh perspective on CL from a new parent after the open day
February 22, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Don’t be ridiculous Gerry. Your behaviour was shameful when you posted that comment. No one else stooped to that level. Also - it was you that attacked the organisers of these lectures and made up nonsense about hidden agendas. Ollie is right - and so was NPN. You ask for constructive debate whilst attacking the people who set this whole thing up. I think you should now be ignored.
February 22, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Chalk up another one for the bullying. Gerry’s right you are a bunch of schoolyard bullies. His commetn was wrong but you dont care about the clarification so I suppose you agree with that Curious eh?
I remember M green aka A machor who got banned. wonder what he’s calling himself today?
February 22, 2007 at 11:10 pm
I am no relation of Gerry but liked the sound of the name.
Can we please get back to discussing Jewish Education. I am led to believe that the CJE AGM will be announced soon and letters will arrive either in schoolbags or by snail mail. I hope all those interested enough in your children’s Jewish (and secular) education will come along and take a constructive part in the meeting.
Richard, I am intrigued by your comments and would love to know what questions you would like answered by CJE. Myself I am looking to hear how other world religions will be taught at the school and the new reading scheme that was mentioned in the previous blog on the subject.
Personally, I am very happy at the way the Kodesh and Ivrit teachers go about educating my children and the good things my children say about all their teachers so i am looking forward to hearing more of the role of CJE as the school looks forward to another new Head Teacher.
February 22, 2007 at 11:49 pm
The issue is not the quality of the teaching or the resources itself but rather where the curriculum comes from and how it has been developed over the years (or not, I don’t know). My problem is the lack of information from CJE about what it does and why. For example is there a centrally formulated curriculum for Kodesh followed by all Jewish schools or is it left to the teachers to develop their own. I know the school is or will be covering comparative religion (a very good thing) and how is that mirrored by the Jewish education part of the school.
As regards the CJE Committee, I would like to know what they do, who they are accountable to and when and how they operate.
Really I do not know enough about CJE and its operations (except the direct debits!) to know what questions to ask. If you dig through the rest of the Blog (especially the ‘welcome’ page) you’ll see lots of questions all of which I hope will be answered at the AGM. It is unfair to criticise until that information is available to be digested.
February 22, 2007 at 11:55 pm
#29 You are? We should care what you think because?
February 23, 2007 at 11:44 am
I think Gerry should have thought a bit more before posting but equally some of the responses are over the top. Let’s now discuss Jewsh education rather than hidden agendas and alleged personality defects.
Any views on the assemblies at Hutchie, Mearns Castle, Craigholme, etc which are for the Jewish kids since these also are part of the Jewsih education (or possible lack of it) in Glasgow?
February 23, 2007 at 1:55 pm
The problem with assemblies at the various schools is getting quality - as I have said at many a UJIA meeting in my opinion it is better not to provide rubbish which turns kids off in a big way, we need to provide quality not quantity and look to getting them along to youth groups, community events, etc.
February 23, 2007 at 5:05 pm
could we get some of the ‘youth’ to some of these meetings or set up some parallel meetings - via the youth forum or as part of this - maybe even a ‘youth’ blog?
February 23, 2007 at 6:06 pm
NLL
One of the points of the creation of the Bulletin Board was to provide a safe and controlled environment on the web where the youth groups (and anyone else for that matter) could have a place for discussion without parents worrying about inappropriate behaviour. Each part of the BB can have access controlled according to each groups desires without the hassle of having to set up and manage their own blog.
It is also important for all the various organisations to have 1 central point of access so that once you’ve got into it you can see all the organisations’ forums laid out in front of you. I imagine if you will 1 forum for each JSoc under a Northern Region Section where announcements of meetings and discussion of whatever they fancy. A group of ’student’ users is created so only they can get access to post but anyone can read.
The GJEF blog is a great concept but the format has its limitations. Without verification of identities it is too easy for the ‘wrong’ sort of people to gain access. Despite the cat calls about the Board, please take a good look at it as it is a format that is very familiar to younger web users and is used by many schools for their own use.
The best way to engage the yoof si through a medium they are intimate with and is available very conveniently. If it also puts access to other groups’ forums (shuls, students, etc etc) then is good for the future as well.
February 23, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Can you stop rambling on about your boring bulletin board? Every comment you submit is to advertise this thing - and I don’t think it’s the answer at all. The owners of this blog should start charging you for advertising or stop you doing this.
By the way Mr Beitz the replies to Gerry were not in my opinion over the top. This was not the first time that Gerry should have thought before posting nonsense and I for one have had enough of it.
Debby, you are right. It should be quality not quantity. What criteria are used before deciding who should be taking these assemblies and is the focus solely religious or do you encourage activities about Jewish identity in all its forms as well?
February 23, 2007 at 9:15 pm
So, Interested, what are you proposing? Anything at all? No, I thought not. NLL made a very good point about something similar to the blog but aim specifically at the youth, however I am concerned that if my children were to participate in a blog, which has very few controls, then I have little or no idea to who they are speaking. Blogs have their place but I believe that the BB format is better suited to less discussion orientated groups and those aimed at children and young adults where registration and validation of participants is required.
If you find it the subject so boring why do you feel obliged to comment?
February 23, 2007 at 10:07 pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Stop going on and on about your bulletin board. We are falling asleep
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
February 24, 2007 at 9:13 am
Interseted #38 it is UJIA who organises the assemblies. I know that they do have packages that they can use which covers both religeous themes and also Jewish identity. However the difficulty is not with the content but rather getting people to provide the assemblies. There are not that many people who want to do them, it is not at convenient time etc so they tend to use who is available rather than who may deliver high quality!!
February 24, 2007 at 9:16 am
I think we should look at Jewish education in a broader sense - it is not just about text books and the teaching of ritual.
For instance has anyone read on page 12 of this week’s Jewish Chronicle about an excellent initiative by J Core - the Jewish Council for Racial Equality. Volunteers from this group spent the night at Parliament Square, in protest at the plight of refugee asylum seekers. The “sleep out” was part of a campaign by this group to raise awareness of destitution and to highlight that destitute asylum seekers have no home. Among the members who participated was Rabbi Jeremy Gordon of St Albans Masorti Synagogue. He commented…” Destitute asylum seekers are easy to ignore, but we do so at our peril. From our history and from our scripture we should recognise that this is a very Jewish issue.”
In my opinion this is also Jewish education. We are too concerned with the ritual and not concerned enough about values in Jewish education. What kind of values do we want our children to grow up with?
We need to redress the balance and in Glasgow we should devote time and energy to this.
February 24, 2007 at 9:30 am
How would you see this being done #42. “We need to redress the balance” “we should devote time and energy to this”. So what time and energy are you going to devote and how do “we” go about it?
I am asking because I have no idea who you are and am interested to know if you put or will put your time and energy where your mouth is!!
Also I do believe that Calderwood already encourages Jewish Values for example, giving to charity, visiting Jewish care, tackling environmental issues, as do many of the youth groups, UJIA etc.
February 24, 2007 at 9:55 am
Debby, you seem to always give the impression that you want to question everyone’s commitment before they have a right to observe and to comment.
Well, I have a long record of communal involvement, and I am still involved comunally today - and no I am not prepared to tell you who I am because I think that the anonymity of this blog will help us get to the core issues more quickly.
I am not specifically referring to any organisation and I accept that some of the things you say about Calderwood - charity etc are being done. We also have in Glasgow an excellent record of looking after our old and needy and this is the one area in our community with Jewish Care, Cosgrove and Newark that is a shining example.
But there is a large gap in terms of what kind of values we teach our children as a community.
It seems to me that the religious leadership is ONLY concerned with ritual and is not overly concerned about other matters. As a community when is the last time we had a major event or initiative to draw attention to some worthwhile cause that didn’t involve Jews or Israel?
Do we as a community teach our children to care about minorities or asylum seekers like that Rabbi in St Albans?
What are the values that Jewish people should have in today’s world?
I will ask one more question - are we sufficiently concerned about general humanity or are we only focussed on our own lives as Jews, or Israel? Surely Jewish values should be to care about others as well.
In my opinion, we as a community are not too bothered about others’ problems. We are too parochial in our concerns, efforts and attitudes.
February 24, 2007 at 11:22 am
#44 I am not questioning anyones commitment but if we all want to comment from our cosy armchairs who is going to do the work?
Secondly as anonymity seems to be preferred I have no way of knowing who you are or what you do or what you contribute to this or any other community.
Thirdly I can only comment for me and my family and I can certainly say that we are involved in supporting many organisations financially and with time both within and outwith the Jewish community. I think part of the problem is also that we are a shrinking community and therefore we need those who are involved in the community to stay involved. Simply there isn’t enough to go around.
February 24, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I am not talking about individual families, but I am talking about the community education programmmes.
The Jewish ethos of our community would be richer and more positive if we were more interested in the world around us.
Do we as a community care about the hardships of others? I would suggest that we don’t because we the attitude is that these problems do not concern us?
When was the last time we saw an initiative from our own community similar to the one by the Rabbi in St Albans? I cannot remember either.
The fact that we are a reducing community is not an excuse for us retreating into our own little world.
If we were able to put forward community education or youth education that connected with some of the isues that young people feel strongly about - then maybe, just maybe, not so many would be disaffected. And by doing it from a Jewish perspective our youth might actually want to be more involved.
February 24, 2007 at 12:54 pm
What community education programmes are you referring to?
February 24, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I am talking about educational programmes that should happen, but unfortunately do not.
There has been a real void in teaching values to our children. What I believe, is that there is more to Jewish education than formal teaching about ritual and for too long there has been a lack of emphasis about Jewish ethics and morality etc.
Too many of our community think that Jewish education is the remit of others and leave it all to religious leaders. And unfortunately that narrow definition is not nearly enough.
We need to think about what values Judaism should have. And we need to think how we want to educate our children and youth and who we want to do that teaching.
We also need to evaluate what diaspora communities’ relationships will be to Israel in the future. Will it be the same as now or will it change.?
February 24, 2007 at 5:27 pm
I think this is an interesting path that Community Member is leading us down ; of course many would argue that if we embrace our ritual and stick broadly to Torah sourced values (I don’t mean being frum -I mean in the wider sense ) , then the ethos that Communitry Member seeks will follow ; some would suggest that we as a group/religion/race have a first class record when it comes to philanthropy or simply looking out for those less fortunate-although it would be fair to say that whilst Jewish Communities “give” financially and in more concrete forms ,they do tend to be selective.I have no statistics to support my proposition but if someone told me that 80 per cent of Jewish help went to only 5 per cent of potential recipients I would find that a believable statistic.
As a community how important is it to teach our children well , and to have them look beyond the boundaries of their immediate jewish environment ? It might be a nice enough thought , but would it not be equally fair to suggest that we are busy enough dealing with our own needs ,particularly given that we cannot rely on others to help us ? Or maybe that Mazorti Rabbi is right and we need to strive to reach beyond our comfort zone ,which effectively means teaching our kids to be far more “global” in there outlook , or to put it another way less parochial.
I’m not sure I have a definitive view .
Shavuah Tov to all.
February 24, 2007 at 5:47 pm
#48 and #49 are extremely thought provoking. One of the most significant advantages of Calderwood is that the whole atmosphere of the school is imbued with Jewish ethics and morals. Teaching Kodesh, whilst good, does not give the children as good an emotional understanding as the wonderful community spirit that the school engenders. Is Community Member proposing something for those primary school age children not at Calderwood as well as a scheme for older kids? Surely it is a parental responsibility to teach ethics and morals as much by example as any other way but it can only be positive for there be some support and guidance that is not religiously motivated.
Npn, please take this in the positive way it is meant. Are you suggesting encouraging our kids to look more globally with a Jewish perspective or in a more general way? Can you expand your thoughts?
February 24, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Community Member I have read everything you have had to say so far and found it very interesting. It would appear from reading extensively on this Blog site that GJEF have arranged a meeting on Thursday 26th April that should be right up your (communal) street.
Sometime towards the end of April Rabbi Professor Naftali Rothenberg will visit Glasgow. His lecture will focus on how anyone involved in Jewish education - informal and formal - has a responsibility to promote good ethical and moral values towards minority groups, and how Judaism has a responsibility in the world today to promote this. Rabbi Rothenberg is the Orthodox Rabbi of Har Adar, a suburb of Jerusalem, and is senior research fellow at the Van Leer Jerusalem Institute. He is also chair of the Centre of Tolerance Education in Israel. He has specifically requested meetings with youth and students.
So this meeting should give you and others food for thought.
February 24, 2007 at 8:51 pm
I would like to expand on what I wrote earlier. I am proposing something for all children and youth whether they attend Calderwood or do not. It also is very relevant for secondary education and certainly for youth groups.
The education programme that we need has to be wider than ritualistic values. To be honest our religious leadership in the past 25 years has failed. As individuals many of our Rabbis, both past and present are good people. But how often do you hear them preach general morality from their pulpits. Of course I am generalising - and I am sure there are exceptions - but in general our Rabbis are preoccupied with teaching ritual - because they believe that will be the answer to our problems. It is rare for them to touch on general morality without emphasising ritual.
They have a part to play in a wider educational programme and it would be highly desirable if they could play an important part.
But we need to think what kind of people we are and the values we have towards non- Jewish people. Far too many of our communiy are too insular in their outlook. Someone put forward the idea that we might be far too busy looking at our own needs to be interested in the plight of others. My answer to that is this. If we become overly concerned with ourselves we lose perspective and we need to let our children be confident about their own Jewish identity and then take the best of that to the wider world.
I was delighted to see that Calderwood Lodge will teach comparative religions. My surprise was that this seems to be a new initiative and I am truly astonished that some people do not want our children to have knowledge about other peoples’ culture.
Our youth groups also have a responsibility. It is a common complaint by many parents that their children are not interested in attending or mixing with other Jewish kids because they do not share that way of thinking. Maybe the youth groups need to have a wider educational programme. Maybe some of these children who do not want to identify at present would identify if there was a product or a way of thinking that they could relate to.
Let’s widen our way of thinking. We live in the wider world - let’s be positive about our Jewish culture and heritage but care about those who are not so fortunate who are not Jewish.
How we interact with the wider world is absolutely crucial.
February 26, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Do you have any concrete ideas community member or is this just a theoretical position? My guess is that you have thought this out in a little more depth and would like to know what you are proposing.
February 26, 2007 at 7:01 pm
This is not just theoretical. I have believed for a long time that anyone involved in education in this community - and I am talking about all kinds of education - including youth groups and students should be committed to a programme that makes it perfectly clear that they have an obligation to teach about the dangers of racism and an obligation to teach respect for all ethnic groups, nationalities, religions and minority groups.
Anyone working within education within our community will have to confirm that they agree to this principle. That will include Rabbis, youth workers, teachers, chaplains. It should be adopted and agreed by all organisations that their employees - paid and voluntary - will follow these guidelines - and this will obviously include UJIA, the Synagogues, CJE , Chaplaincy Board etc. This would be part of their contract of employment.
We should, as a community, introduce a programme en educational programme that covers all age groups that will teach about this subject.
I will expand on this in due course.
February 26, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Sorry- my 2nd last paragraph should read
” introduce an educational programme”
February 26, 2007 at 9:29 pm
The principles you would have our educators teach are self evident but how would you go about ensuring that this is done when there are so many diverse employers all with their own agendas? These employers may also need some education themselves not just to understand what the brief is but to be knowledgeable enough to monitor the progress of such initiatives. This sort of policy would need a community united in purpose and would demand radical changes. If I remember correctly, there was an earlier proposal to rationalize the community buildings, organizations and underlying structure to take account of the community we are at present and will be in 10 years time rather than what we once were. I forget who actually put forward the suggestion but it seemed worthy of further consideration and some such rearrangement may be necessary to create the conditions for your proposals to be more than just a theoretical position.
February 26, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Let’s think about this. Why could there not be a not ” communal charter” set up soon that is a basic guide to principles which all communal organisations are urged to adopt. You do not need to wait 10 years before their is a complete overhaul of communal structure. In the short term some organisations would sign up - and this could be publicised. Soon it would be obvious which organisations had not signed up. And then the community could ask why?
I think this would work. You do need a community united in purpose at the beginning. That is utopian. But you need to start somewhere. Maybe GJEF might undertake to start this initiative?
What do others think?
February 26, 2007 at 10:21 pm
I am not in disagreement. I would point out that it was not suggested that we wait 10 years,rather we start now laying down the necessary conditions. It is important to look ahead to ensure that those conditions are appropriate.
February 27, 2007 at 2:17 pm
GJEF have done well organising a few meetings, I think reorganising glasgow’s jews is beyond they’re remit.
All these groups already have such policies in place, is he (or she) suggesting that groups be foreced to sign up or face being ostracized or denied funding. Who sets this new policy and how are they chosen? How does affect groups that only teach jewish subjects like Luby?
Creating a plan to consolidate buildings and groups is one thing but dictating their activities is doomed to failure.
February 27, 2007 at 3:10 pm
I think you lot need a reality check! Much of the type of education you are referring to is already being carried out at our youth groups and you are not going to dictate what our Rabbi’s teach.
February 27, 2007 at 5:28 pm
There have already been cross communal meetings about consolidating educational and other activity in Glasgow - I attended one, and understand there had been previous meetings. There was a lot of good stuff discussed and many round the table were in general agreement about taking some first steps. Unfortunately before the ink was dry, one organisation scuppered all the plans by doing something that contradicted what had been agreed - so leaving others demoralised and frustrated.
So good as some of the previous suggestions might be I’m really not sure how you force people to sign up, and what sanctions you have if groups or individuals don’t play.
Debbie I agree much is already being done by existing youth groups - maybe we just need to support them better and not throw away what works well.
February 27, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Reality is that many of the organisations are voluntary and therefore you cannot force them to sign up to anything.
I know that UJIA are trying really hard to support and work with existing groups and have already done training for youth leaders. I think this is a much more realistic way to move forward.
One of the problems Glasgow Jewry will have to face in the future is a lack of youth leaders and we need to find ways of working with our youth leaders and not alienating them.
February 27, 2007 at 7:23 pm
I note some interesting responses to my idea about an educational programme or charter as MB calls it that has a basic code of conduct for communal organisations regarding racism, respect for minorities etc.
I am not surprised about some of the responses to this but I am disappointed.
Little John is quite wrong. Firstly there are no current policies in place by any communal organisation I know and I would dearly love to know who they are if they exist because they are setting a very good example.
It should not be such a controversial proposal that it causes such disquiet. Why on earth should there not be a code of principles for Jewish communal organisations when it exists in every other area of public life.
Those who signed up would be applauded and the community could decide for themselves what support to give to those who refuse.
We are only talking here about a basic charter about racism and respect for other minorities. This is hardly revolutionary material.
Little John is obviously unsure about what this proposal actually is because the fact that one’s remit is to teach Judaism should not prevent that organisation having no tolerance for racism and prejudice. I would hope Lubavitch would have no problem with such a charter.
Debby, if it was only true that our youth groups taught this kind of material then there would be no problem. They do not. Also please tell me what decent human being could have a problem agreeing to these principles - and many Rabbis are decent people - and I would suggest should have no problem with adopting this. Please tell me why they would.
I would also suggest that there have been years of neglect in our community regarding youth groups. I would suggest that the current educational support system for these groups is poor. Part of this has arisen because there is only one organisation that is involved in this - UJIA - and this has actually resulted in a decrease in standards. I will expand on this at a later date.
February 27, 2007 at 9:57 pm
COMMUNITY MEMBER
At least five but no more than ten skeleton bullet points please for the fledgling charter ; happy to help you put meat (glatt of course) on the bones !
February 27, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Before I commented I spent 10 minutes looking at the youth groups websites and found that every one either had a policy or made clear references to tolerance of other minorities. All have links to fairtrade, protect Darfur and other non jewish campaigns. Every one says they express jewishness with global awareness - even those with a jewish religious centre. Why have you not checked?
All employers must, by UK law, have policies on racism and equal opportunities and this already form part of employees contracts. Therefore all th communal bodies (’employee’ covers paid and voluntary) must have these policies. It is correct it is not revolutionary, it has been explicit in law for many years.
Community member is right about 1 thing though, i do not understand why yet more policies are needed to cover the same issues. If a group does not have a policy then they should create one. Who are we to impose our views on them.
February 28, 2007 at 7:08 am
I have never been that bothered about getting people to sign up to things since it’s what they do and not what they say that matters. I see companies who tick the boxes to get Investors In People accreditation when they treat their staff appallingly. Indeed some of these certificates do remind me of the man who carries a document with him certifying he is sane.
However I do agree that too much of the religious teaching deals with ritual and not enough with ethics. Too often we forget the commandments between man and man are just as important, if not more, than those between man and God. Honours are given to monied people despite the fact their morality stinks. Shul boxes are occupied by struck off solicitors and their like. At the same time the man who marries out will not be called up in a number of orthodox shuls despite him having just been bereaved.
Hopefully Rabbi Rothenberg will tip the balance a little when he speaks. We actually have a pretty strong set of ethical values in Judaism to live your daily life by. Unfortunately we lose sight of these when looking at the ritual minutiae.
February 28, 2007 at 7:40 am
How would you get everyone to sign up to the charter? You can’t just say here is a charter written by me and my mates from the blog. You would need to get the rep. council to approve it first.
February 28, 2007 at 8:11 am
Surely the first step is to encourage more of our youngsters to join the various youth groups and move on to do the (very good) leadership courses they all run. Then they are more likely to be interested in the issues facing our local and global communities and go on to become involved in ‘adult’ groups/services/committees, Jewish & Non-Jewish.
We should be supporting these groups both financially and with our time and doing everything to get more young people involved.
We have a very proud tradition in Glasgow of providing many of the best national (and international) leaders and activists.
February 28, 2007 at 9:14 am
The laws between man and man far outweigh those between man and God (IIRC) but nevertheless it is often the ritual that helps us concentrate on the ‘higher’ purpose like the footballist who crosses himself before entering the field of play or kisses the club’s emblem on his shirt. He is unlikely to be religious but still he performs that ritual.
Many of Glasgow’s organisations (especially youth) are renowned for producing leaders and there are still (just) sufficient numbers of kids available to attend to maintain the diversity of outlook of these groups. Any proposal that requires these organisations to conform to a single standard of expression is morally reprehensible. Given that every organisation in our Community publishes their guiding principles any ‘Charter’ created by a small, unrepresentative group would be divisive and counter productive.
I’m sure there is little argument that the Rep Council, in its current form at least, is not the ideal forum for such a discussion but it is the only one that is even remotely representative and no charter or policy could have any legitimacy without full involvement with, and agreement to, the discussion from EVERY group affiliated to the Jewish Community.
February 28, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Some further interesting responses. Richard you do not understand the proposal. I am not forcing organisations to do anything and they do not have to conform to ” a single standard of expression”..I am proposing a minimum standard of acceptable behaviour and decency and I do not think this would be so difficult to achieve. If it is - it is a dreadful indictment on us. Jezabel - this has nothing to do with a Representative Council. You do not need everyone’s agreement to put forward something like this.
I believe that some would sign up and some will not. Those who do - then great. Those that don’t may be asked to explain to the community why they have not.
NLL - there is so much more to education in our youth groups than sending leaders on the kind of leadership courses that UJIA seem to be obsessed with. These courses in Glasgow have consistently dealt with marketing and presentation. But as far as I can ascertain not too much about the actual educational content the youth groups are delivering.. We have a paid youth leader in Glasgow. Who is his employer, what does he do and who checks that he does what he should be doing?
I have commented that there is a problem in our community regarding the lack of an educational programme dealing with the teaching of respect for minorities, prejudice and ignorance of other cultures. Some people seem to think that everything is fine whereas I think it has been sadly remiss for years. I believe respect for others is a Jewish issue and we should think about a proper programme of education in this area.
If we as a community do not understand these issues how will our children learn that racism is wrong and that we need to respect all human beings regardless of race, religion or nationality.
We should not just look inward. We should have the confidence to look outwards.
I will as NPN requested offer my views on what would be in any proposed charter.
February 28, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Can you give examples of the unacceptable behaviour that needs addressing?
If a standard is created, it is pointless unless enforced. However as the definition of “decency” and “morality” differs wildly between secular and religious never mind between political left and right, the real debate is who has the Right to create and then attempt to impose such a “standard” without consensus.
February 28, 2007 at 6:20 pm
I still don’t understand who writes the charter, GJEF? Is it possible for anyone to write a charter for the community?
February 28, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Jezabel….wakey wakey.
What do you not understand?
No one from GJEF has indicated that this charter would be written by them.
Someone might have suggested that they could but that is not the same? Of course anyone can write something that they think would help the community. It is then up to the community to decide whether they agree with it.
Can you please keep up.
February 28, 2007 at 6:47 pm
“No one from GJEF has indicated that this charter would be written by them.”
Oh yeah? Who is Community Member, npn, MB, Interested etc. They could be the GJEF for all we know.
February 28, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Thank you interested i understand perfectly now!
February 28, 2007 at 7:14 pm
The proposed charter is an excellent initiative not because it will have a direct effect on community attitudes but because it is a statement of intent of the type of community we aspire to be. In itself the charter will not deal with racism; that can only be tackled by education and example. There is already a plethora of anti racist legislation in place in this country, but still racism is ubiquitous and possibly on the increase. There has already been one statement on this blog which had racist undertones. I am quite sure that it was not intentionally racist but arose out of lack of understanding and proper education. It is these sorts of attitudes that could and should be corrected. A few months ago a community dinner was arranged at which the speaker was a person of known extreme if not racist views. The dinner was eventually cancelled not by the intervention of leadership from the top. There is little leadership at the top. There are some very genuine, hardworking volunteers who do their best within their limited capabilities but that must never be confused with leadership. The dinner was cancelled because one, possibly two people had the sense to realise that not only was this wrong but that it would in the long term cause damage to the community. The damage would be twofold: our relationships with the greater community would be undermined and there would be damage to our own moral fibre. This was the case of one person having the vision and the will and the confidence to know right from wrong and being willing to lead a community from the bottom, from among the grass roots. There is talk of consulting with the Rep Council or other agencies within the community but that is consulting with anathema and failure.
February 28, 2007 at 7:15 pm
And you could be GJEF as well GD - but that is not important. Debate the issues please.
February 28, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Any of us (or all of us) not readily identified by name could be GJEF. This IS the issue - who is qualified to create such a charter, certainly not anyone I know, within this community or not. The fact that Ben Avraham considers it a fait a complis clearly demonstrates that now is the time for everyone to stand up and be counted. If one believes the ‘charter’ is truly a vehicle for global good then one must be seen to have the strength of one convictions and be publicly accountable in the same way many of us wish other groups would be.
If there is no consultation with the community at large (which this blog does not constitute) then there cannot be consensus and therefore any charter/policy will be doomed to exist on the fringes until it is forgotten. Any attempt to take the moral high ground unilaterally, however laudable, cannot be successful.
This would make a fantastic final meeting. It is both educational and directly affects the Community’s future.
February 28, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Sorry but I’m still sceptical. It could be like the IJV statement where any right thinking person would agree with the sentiments but they are so wide that they are meaningless. It’s what we do that matters. Do we visit the sick and the bereaved or assist those in need practically and/or financially. Do we welcome strangers into our land whether economic immigrants or asylum seekers? Do we exhibit respect to people and try not to humiliate them? Do we behave ethically at work and at leisure? These are the sort of things that matter and people signing statements that they will be anti racist etc will probably achieve little.
February 28, 2007 at 8:20 pm
You seem to be implying A Beitz that responsibilty lies with every individual. Of course it does. However there is also communal responsibility. And this necessitates standing up for what is right - and giving direction to what is right and what is wrong - and to what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. A statement or charter with defining principles is not an end in itself. It is the beginning.
February 28, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Ben Avraham #76 made it clear that legislation doesn’t always solve the problem. In any case I’m inclined to agree with those questioning what goes into the charter. Either it’s the bleeding obvious eg tolerance, helping the less fortunate, etc or it gets into controversy depending upon individuals own values. If it’s agreed that no racist speakers will be permitted to speak by organisations then you have to define racist. Does it include Robert Kilroy-Silk or the whole Tory Party or the SNP or those who accept the Law of Return in Israel? Look at the amount of controversy the Human Rights Act engenders. The basic principles are non controversial but defining them certainly is.
February 28, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Community member will no doubt tell us what he thinks should be in this charter but what’s your solution if you don’t agree with this attempt to state some clear guidelines. Let us look at one example for a start.
It was unfortunately all too obvious that many people involved in UJIA either did not care about the issues concerning Kilroy’s invitation or did not even understand what the issues were. So perhaps some guidelines would have been useful for that organisation for starters?
February 28, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Community Member - I don’t know what your experience of the various youth leadership training courses is? I certainly haven’t detected a preoccupation with marketing and presentation. My sons have been involved with courses run by Macabbi, FZY, UJS and UJIA - they have learnt about child protection, educational content and methodology, bullying, team building, committee skills, interfaith dialogue, co-operation, responsibility on an individual and group level. They’ve developed a pride in their community and religion and so much much more + they’ve made, Jewish, friends the length and breadth of the country. The youth groups are running programmes of an impressively wide and varied nature - FZY are currently planning a session on sensory impairment.
Those who become involved are more than half-way there to staying involved, in some capacity, as adults. My real concern is that a large proportion of our young people do not attend any of these groups. Maybe more attention needs to be paid to the marketing and presentation you were so scathing about!!
Re the employment of a paid youth-worker. I believe the current encumbant is employed and line managed by UJIA. There are advantages with this arrangement as he can work across the various youth groups and is not tied to any one. Various youth groups have employed their own workers at various times - but funding is a big issue and most National organisations cannot support this given the small numbers involved here. I once dreamt of a team of youth workers, headed by a professionally qualified senior - I think that is no longer feasible?
February 28, 2007 at 9:09 pm
sensory what! Richard, get your dictionary out quick
February 28, 2007 at 9:29 pm
What is it about people on this blog that have such a great desire to either praise their spouse for recent comments - or seem to think it is appropriate to tell us how wonderful their children are. Stop this nonsense.
February 28, 2007 at 10:00 pm
#85. And your contribution to this debate is …?
February 28, 2007 at 10:13 pm
I only asked Community Member to produce a draft to give us food for thought-then I and anyone else can revise away to our collectice heart’s content-the point being that once CM produces something we can then see how much of a pipe dream it is or if infact concensus is just round the corner.I’m not worried about who would sign up-but I am curious to see if our assembled wit , intellect ,beligerence, and apathy can come up with something worthy of rolling out to the community at large for discussion at a sunday night meeting…..
On youth groups ,my eldest has gone to Habonim a couple of times-she certainly enjoyed it but when I asked her about the Habonim stuff of my youth there wasn’t even a flicker of recognition i.e.Cupa (spelling?) ,zionism ,socialism ,judaism ! Iknow it is Dror/Habonim now but has it changed so much ?
Maybe Community Member and I are living in an idealistic past.
February 28, 2007 at 10:26 pm
CommunityMember-if there was a fixed charter and for example the Rep. Council/BoD supported it ,what would happen if Israel did something which some supported and others saw as say discriminatory-the existence of your charter might by definition require the Rep.Council/BoD to criticise Israel for behaving contrary to the new code-the reality of course being that Israel must play by different rules and as such , value judgements that are quite legitimate in the uk cannot be applied in the same way when looking at Israel ; for that reason I seek clarity-are you intending this code/charter to govern only those who subscribe or all jews (and by definition Israel ) ,and if only those who subscribe does it mean we must condemn others who break your code ?I might support your code but be unwilling to take issue with those who choose not to.
February 28, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Oh no Mr Beitz, not you as well!
February 28, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Amazed - If you are speaking to me, I was not for one minute suggesting in this context that my children were wonderful - although of course they are. I merely mentioned they have participated in these groups and training courses to explain how I knew about what went on - otherwise you would rightly ask how I felt able to comment.
Ben Avraham - sensory impairment; collective term for loss of ones hearing and/or sight.
February 28, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Can any one of these people committed to the new “peoples charter” please tell what you are on about. I have read this thread since community member started it and I haven’t got a clue what he/she is on about and what it has got to do with anything.
If I am right what is being talked about are people’s ethics, morals etc and if everybody signed up to this mythical charter - would we be a better community? And who would check. Sorry y’all I’m with Mr Beitz who’s name is actually contrary to this charter - it’s about what you DO rather than what you write about.
So come on CM put some meat on the bones and let us see what you are actually proposing because up till now all i am reading is waffle.
February 28, 2007 at 11:12 pm
NLL Oh, stupid me. Maybe the youth also speak poor socialese. A translation might help to attract them.
February 28, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Why do people who cannot grasp the complexities of a subject on this blog not try and read and learn without trying to dismiss a subject as irrelevant or waffle.
If you had a little more insight “confused” you would be aware that this is a debate about moral values in this community. Why do you need everyone to sign up immediately? Can some not set an example?
Can I suggest that you re-read Ben Avraham’s summary of this issue - no 76 and then you might have a better understanding.
Also, NLL , I think it is time that you stopped blaming those who do not attend youth groups and start thinking about the reasons. Also read NLL’s comments about the education at one group and you will realise that the educational content at some of these groups is not what you think it is. You seem to know who employs the youth worker. Well could you tell us what he does and who checks that he does what he should be doing? Finally, why do so few of the youth attend communal meetings like the one that Jim Murphy spoke at. They used to. Is it not part of the youth worker’s remit to get the youth to meetings such as this?
March 1, 2007 at 7:36 am
MB
1. Tell me a Jewish organisation or group in Glasgow that doesn’t already stand up to this “charter” (that nobody has actually defined yet).
2. The youth probably didn’t attend Jim Murphy’s meeting because it was during the time of their Intermediate/Standard Grade & Higher prelims.
March 1, 2007 at 8:42 am
Ben Avraham - ‘poor socialese!!’ If people think they are going to sign up to some sort of charter espousing anti-discriminatory practice etc, you’ll find that terms like sensory impairment are established and accepted language - so you better get used to them.
MB - I wasn’t blaming those who don’t attend the youth groups - the exact opposite. I was replying to the post from Community Member that said the leadership training seemed to focus on ‘marketing and presentation’ to the exclusion of the other issues that were being proposed by his charter. I suggested they already covered much of this, but maybe need to do more ‘marketing and presentation’ to attract those who are disaffected.
I am not involved in the employment of the youth worker, but I’m sure if you ask someone from UJIA Renewal they will enlighten you.
I totally agree about encouraging our youngsters to come to Community meetings and already suggested this in the blogg following the Jim Murphy meeting. 3 young people were present at that meeting - and they asked the most searching questions of the night with little support from the adults present.
March 1, 2007 at 9:42 am
Youth attendance has always been a problem and was discussed previously on the blog. A combination of parental disinterest in politics, lack of involvement (historically) in youth movements and subject matter that appeals to an older demographic is to blame.
It may be a mistake to try and lump everything together if we are to make inroads into the perceived apathy. The GJEF meetings have been a great focal point and the most interesting series of lectures for some time (albeit not yet directly relating to the Community’s future) and I’m looking forward to more, however 16-24 year olds in general are unlikely to be interested in moral/ethical debates.
As NL says, our Youth Movements need support from those with kids. The kids need to be encouraged to go, the leaders need strong Va’ad leman (Parent Committees) to guide and support/fundraise and despite the huge differences in political and religious outlook there is the possibility of joint/combined meetings to overcome the lack of numbers available. JLGB, whilst not peer led, shows that youth groups can still be immensely popular and there is no reason why, with support, FZY, RSY, Habo, BA etc cannot be equally successful. A suitable model for Glasgow’s peculiar needs should be developed. A blog is not the right forum, it must be done face to face by those currently involved and aware of the issues and, I suggest, be ready in time for next September for the next academic session?
March 1, 2007 at 9:54 am
Our 16-24 year olds must be the only group in existence that are not interested in moral/ ethical debates. Whatever you are on Richard, can I please have some?
March 1, 2007 at 10:02 am
I forgot to add that Incognito and NLL are kidding themselves.
The youth have not come to meetings in any numbers for years. And the students who are around in our community do not come either. It seems to me that there must be poor direction and leadership.
March 1, 2007 at 10:34 am
Maybe there hasn’t been anything of sufficient interest to attract the 16 -24 yr olds for a while - although Richard I actually think morals/ethics etc is an area that may well appeal. You are right however about the lack of encouragement - particularly from parents. As has been discussed elsewhere, they are not a group over conspicuous for their communal involvement either. Whilst public transport in this area is so poor, parents need to be physically involved in getting their off-spring to events - even if they can’t quite bring themselves to attend.
Also many meetings are on a Sunday night which clashes at least with FZY. I did suggest they arrange a couple of their meetings around the GJEF meetings, but whilst many of the 16/17/18 year old leaders were interested, they felt it wasn’t appropriate for the younger members.
Rabbi Rothenberg has specifically asked to meet youths/students and arrangements are being made for this.
March 1, 2007 at 11:12 am
qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm
March 1, 2007 at 11:38 am
Brilliant “amazed” you know your way round a keyboard. Congratulations.
Meanwhile I know of at least 16+ who would have gone to the Jim Murphy meeting except that they were studying for their Higher prelims so there!
March 1, 2007 at 12:18 pm
NLL
Fair enough, I don’t know that many 16-24yr olds! This is why those involved with that age group have to do the helping, I’m more aware of 6-8yr old’s interests.
Incidentally, what are teh activity levels of the various groups, I know JLGB is strong and Habo is back on but what about the others? What can those of us with younger kids do to help?
Amazed
The fringe benefits of being a drugs dealer are many and varied but it does sound like you have a good supply already!!
March 1, 2007 at 2:17 pm
The wording of a proposed community charter on the subject that has been discussed is posted below but I would like to comment first.
I welcome comment about the actual wording but please do not tell me that we do not have a problem in our community, because the evidence suggests otherwise. If you disagree with a charter please tell me how you would tackle the problem. To do nothing as we have been doing for years would be wrong.
If one of our foremost organisations - UJIA - who are certainly involved in activities and the funding of Jewish education - do not believe that it was totally unacceptable to invite Kilroy-Silk to speak at their annual dinner, and then tried to defend the indefensible - and when only one voice within this entire organisation would say openly that it was inappropriate and the invitation should be withdrawn - does that not imply that we as a community have a leadership problem.
If that is the example sent to the youth of this community and youth workers remain silent and when the voices of students also are not heard when you would expect students to be in the forefront of protests does that not make you think?
When the community remained silent for so long when one of its organisations was distributing material that could have been construed as racially inflamatory and when one of the founders of that organisation addressed a public meeting in Glasgow and made a speech that was certainly beyond reasonable expression - and that same individual remained on the executive of the Representative Council for months later, what does that tell you about prevailing values?
And unfortunately, I could continue with more examples of what has gone wrong. Now is the time to wake up and start to deal with this problem. Some may wish to bury their heads in the sand but I would prefer that we as a community embark upon a proper programme of education.
This proposed charter’s purpose is to establish a standard for public life in our community.
Community Charter.
1. From our history, and our culture and our religion we as a community should appreciate the dangers of racism and intolerance towards minority groups.
2. We have an obligation as individuals and as a community to teach respect for all ethnic groups, nationalities, religions and minorities and we have an obligation to teach about the dangers of racism.
3. We should have no tolerance for racism and prejudice and we have an obligation to raise awareness and concern for the plight of those suffering from this type of discrimination.
4. We should be positive about our Jewish identity and appreciate that it is part of our ethics and morality as a Jewish community to care about those who are not so fortunate.
5. We should encourage educational programmes in our community that will highlight these issues and we recognise that the ethos of our community will be richer and more positive if we care about the plight of others around us.
March 1, 2007 at 2:37 pm
As everyone expected,